December 03, 2012
Shias and their future in Pakistan
by Omar Ali
Shias (mostly Twelver Shias, but also including smaller groups of Ismailis and Dawoodi Bohras, etc.) make up between 5 and 25% of Pakistan’s population. The exact number is not known because the census does not count them separately and pro and anti-Shia groups routinely exaggerate or downgrade the number of Shias in Pakistan (thus the most militant Sunni group, the Sipah e Sahaba, routinely uses the figure of 2% Shia, which is too low, while Shias sometimes claim they are 30% of the Muslim population, which is clearly too high).
Shias were not historically a “minority group” in the sense in which modern identity politics talks about “minorities” (a definition that,
sometimes unconsciously, includes some sense of being oppressed/marginalized by
the majority). Shias were part and
parcel of the Pakistan movement and the “great leader”
himself was at least nominally Shia. He was not
a conventionally observant Muslim (e.g. he regularly drank alcohol and may
have eaten pork) and was for the most part a fairly typical upper-class “Brown
sahib”, English in dress and manners, but Indian in origin.
He was born Ismaili Khoja but
switched to the more mainstream Twelver sect; a conversion that he attested to
in a written affidavit in some court. His conversion was said to
be due to the Khoja Ismaili sect excommunicating his sisters for marrying
non-Khojas.
In short, his position as a Shia was not a significant problem
for him as he led the Muslim League’s movement for a separate Muslim state. Twelver
Shias were well integrated into the Muslim elite, and in opposition to Hindus they were all fellow Muslims. The question of whether Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was
occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous
stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in
some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not a priority for the superficially Anglicized
North Indian Muslim elite. Their Muslim
identity distinguished them from Hindus (and especially in North India, it was mixed with a certain anti-Indian racism, the assumption being that they themselves
were “superior” Afghans, Turks, Persians, etc.). But foreshadowing the problems
that would come later as
the ideology of Pakistan matured, a Shia-Sunni distinction did arise when Jinnah died; his sister arranged a hurried Shia funeral inside the house, while the state arranged a larger Sunni funeral (led by an anti-shia cleric) in public.
This event and his own studied avoidance of any
specifically Shia observance in his life, has led to claims by
anti-Shia activists that Jinnah was
in fact Sunni. But years later, a
court did get to rule on this issue and they ruled that he was Shia (property
was involved). By the time his sister died in 1967, matters had
become uglier and even
an orderly Sunni funeral was not easily arranged.
Since then, things have become much worse. The leaders of the Muslim league in general and the great leader in particular seem to have thought that
once a Muslim state had been founded, it would function as a kind of Muslimized
version of British India. The same commissioners and deputy commissioners,
selected by the same civil service examinations, would rule over the “common
people” while a thin (and thinly educated) crust of Muslim landlords and other
“Ashraaf” lorded it over them.
Having used Islam to separate themselves from their Hindu and Sikh neighbors, they might occasionally use it to strengthen the spirit of Jihad in Kashmir or carry out other nation-building projects but it was not seen as a potential problem. Some of them probably thought there would be something called Islamic law in Islamic Pakistan, but most of the push for sharia law came from mullahs who had strongly opposed Jinnah’s project on the logical grounds that no one as ignorant of Islam as Jinnah could possibly create an Islamic state…but they soon realized that this pork-eating, whisky drinking Shia had indeed done so, and they were then quick to move in and try to take ownership).
Jinnah and some of the other Westernized Muslims in the
Muslim League (like their later descendant Imran Khan) do seem to have had the
vague notion that a true Islamic state was a sort of social-democratic
welfare state that was first introduced into the world by the Caliph Omar and
then taken by the Swedes to Europe (see here
for details regarding this belief).
Some others thought Pakistan would be a secular Westminster- style
democracy, but one dominated by Muslims rather than Hindus (to which they added
the common belief that Muslims are "inherently democratic" while Hindus are “caste-ridden”).
But the mullahs knew better. An Islamic state must have Islamic laws. And these laws are not going to be created de novo by some Westernized Muslims impressed by Scandinavian Social Democracy; a lot of them already exist. They were developed over hundreds of years in medieval times. And they are serious business. Very deep questions of legitimacy and authority were debated by the people who created those laws. Part of the Shia-Sunni dispute had to do with exactly these questions of authority and legitimacy. As long as the state is British or Indian or ethno-nationalist, these debates are mostly history; if and when there is an Islamic renaissance they will no doubt be dredged up by the kind of people who insist the ten commandments are the basis of all Western laws, but that level of development has yet to occur in any Islamic country. Outside of Saudi Arabia, what we have right now is Western/colonial legal codes and state institutions with a smattering of “sharia punishments” thrown in for effect. But if you have created a state with no real basis except Islamic solidarity it doesn’t take long to start wondering how and when the state will actually become Islamic. And once you start down that path, you have to specify which Islamic law? Or you have to do the hard work of inventing a whole new set. The “new set” option is a step too far for the limited intellectual resources available to the Pakistani elite (and involves fighting past the apostasy and blasphemy roadblocks), so we are back to arguing about which school to follow.
General Zia, who understood these matters better than the average Pakistani liberal, took his theology seriously. He favored hardcore Sunni schools of thought, though his exact allegiances are by no means clear. He also understood the importance of Saudi Arabia as a source of cash, and that may have played a role in his decisions (e.g.a senior official in his govt later claimed that he introduced the Islamic law of cutting off the hands of thieves purely in order to get short-term Saudi favor). In any case, he introduced a series of “Islamic laws” one of which made it compulsory for all Muslims to pay Zakat (poor tax) to the state. Shia jurisprudence regarded this as a personal matter rather than a state matter and a very large number of Shias organized to demand that they be excluded from this law. This Shia movement was given some support by Iran (a message from Khomeini was read out to the largest gathering in Islamabad), a fact that has allowed some apologists to claim that all later problems are part of some sort of proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia (a claim that is thoroughly debunked here). While the Shias won that round and were exempted from Zakat, a line had been drawn that has continued to become darker and bloodier with time.
At ground level a lot of this was not due to any single organized conspiracy but involved the confluence of several factors:
Islamization put the question of “whose Islam” on the table; Zia’s personal
leanings led to support for anti-Shia factions;
Saudi Arabia inserted
Wahabi-Salafi propaganda into the mix; The Shia response to the Zakat law and
open (even if mostly symbolic) support from Iran helped opponents to label
them Iranian agents; and modernization and modern education themselves led to a
preference for modern (and fascist) versions of Islam in preference to folk
Islam with its “superstitious” rituals and rather obvious multicultural colorfulness.
Newly rich Saudi and Gulf individuals wished to promote “true Islam” in Pakistan. Many individuals in Pakistan wished to be paid by Gulf and Saudi millionaires to do the same. While the actual madrassa cannon-fodder came mostly from poor families, the policy the promoted the same came from middle class military officers and their civilian collaborators. Modern education and economics had prepared the minds of many middle class Pakistanis (including many whose families were traditionally Barelvi Sunni) to accept Maudoodi-type “back-to-basics” modern Islamism. Just like traditional folk Hinduism was rejected by Arya Samajis and other Hindu reformers, educated middle class Muslims in Pakistan were ready to reject folk Islam and strive for modernized purity. Thus,in predominantly Barelvi Pakistan, the majority of the new madrassas set up all over the country and paid for by Gulf money turned out to be hardline Deobandi, Ahle hadith and Wahhabi in sectarian orientation.
It is worth repeating that the Anti-Shia polemic was not paramount in the minds of many of the geniuses who promoted these policies. In fact, many in the Pakistani middle class still have no clear idea of where the anti-Shia polemic is coming from. It was not part of our education. While Shias were a minority sect, their version of Karbala and the martyrdom of Husain was widely accepted and reverence for Ali and the house of Ali was part of most Sufi orders. Shia symbolism had spread well beyond the Shias and become part of the cultural heritage of educated Sunnis in South Asia. Certainly there were Ahle hadith and Wahhabi mullahs who were frankly anti-Shia, but even they tended to stay away from any direct criticism of Imam Hussein and his family. That this kind of reverence is not a universal feature of the Muslim word is not something that was even vaguely known to most Pakistani or Indian middle class Sunnis. That in Indonesia and Malaysia there is practically no sense of Moharram as a month of universal mourning is a surprise; that the Saudi Wahhabis have a well-developed anti-Shia polemic that brands the Shias as heretics, Jewvish agents and frank enemies of Islam was poorly understood.
But the fact is the Saudi Wahhabis and their fellow travelers DO have such a story. When I first heard the Saudi version (from a Pakistani doctor who had converted to Saudi Islam and ran a “study circle” in our residential camp in Saudi Arabia) it was a bit of a shock. It took a while for me to realize that his version of history was completely mainstream in Saudi Arabia. In this version, Islam (basically a military enterprise from day one) was spreading rapidly on its way to conquer the world, until a Jew named Ibne Saba helped to create a fitna (the first civil war) that sabotaged this first attempt at world conquest. This fitna is now known as the Shia sect and they have been sabotaging Islam ever since. I paraphrase of course, but this is not too far from what any pious Saudi or Gulf millionaire believes. It is therefore no surprise that they spend good money to teach Pakistanis these “truths” and some of them go on to support killers who take the next step and start physically eliminating Shias.
A second and only locally important economic factor was the fact that there were some prominent Shia landlords and power-brokers in Southern Punjab. Anti-Shia polemics combined in those parts with what the Marxists gleefully call “class issues” to fuel a hardline Sunni revolt against the local Shia elite in these areas.
But the third and most critical component of this perfect storm was
the state policy of Jihad or “strategic depth”. The Afghan Jihad that
effectively destroyed Afghanistan may have been a CIA project, but from day one
it was supported and then hijacked by local actors who
had priorities of their own. Cynical Saudis saw it as a way to send away
religious zealots to “jihad camp”; Pious Saudis saw it as a way to spread true
Islam to the benighted heathens; and GHQ saw it as a golden opportunity to get
“strategic depth” in Afghanistan, to be translated later into conquest of
Kashmir and projection of power (perhaps even an empire!) in Central Asia.
As a
result, the ISI got oodles of cash from the CIA and the Saudis (every American
dollar was matched dollar for dollar by the Saudis) and had complete autonomy
in who they handed it out to. They handed it out to the most hardline Islamist
groups they could find. And the Saudis paid for the madrassas where hardline
Islam was to be taught to future suicide bombers. That it included a healthy
dose of anti-Shia propaganda was part of the package. Even today, many Pakistanis who have not been
directly involved in jihad and anti-jihad have no idea of the kind of ideological
poison that was being injected into
Pakistan’s Madrassa and Jihad underworld starting in the 1980s and accelerating
through the 1990s under state patronage; and continuing even as the state
itself became at least partially ambivalent about the cause. One visit to this site and others like it should help to put things in
perspective.
Very early on, some of the anti-Shia groups started targeting Shias within Pakistan. Jhang in central Punjab was an early battleground, as were Gilgit, Kohistan and Parachinar. Zia’s regime is said to have actively helped set up the Anjuman e Sipah Sahaba (ASS), the primary anti-Shia militant group, probably as a way of getting political leverage against uppity Shias. Like many other inventions of general Zia (MQM being the most famous) the puppets soon escaped from state control (while continuing to receive help and protection from factions within the state). Ultra-militant offshoots of the ASS (offshoot or deniable-militant-arm, take your pick) like the Lashkar e Jhangvi (LEJ) had launched open war on all Pakistani Shiites by the 1990s. The state made some efforts to rein them in , but since the same militants were linked by common donors and patrons to other militants that were considered “good” by the state (as in Kashmir Jihadists, Taliban, etc.) this crackdown was always ineffectual and remains so to this day.
The level of violence has steadily accelerated over time. To get an overview of the violence, see here. This has now reached the point where I personally know well-established Shia doctors who abandoned their life in Karachi and escaped to the US because someone across the hall was shot dead in broad daylight because of his sect. This year, over 300 Shias were killed or injured in attacks during the holy month of Moharram. Since 2001, 700 plus Shia Hazaras have been murdered in Quetta city and its environs and over 3000 injured. In events that evoke the horrors of partition and 1971, Shias were taken down from buses in Kohistan and identified either using their names (there are some typically Shia names, though overlap occurs)
or the scars of self-flagellation many Shias have on their backs. They were then shot in cold blood. The term “Shia genocide” has been used and several op-eds have appeared in which prominent writers are asking where this will end.
So where will this end? Prediction is
where the pundit rubber meets the road, so here goes:
- The state will make a genuine effort to stop this madness. Shias are still not seen as outsiders by most educated Pakistani Sunnis. When middle class Pakistanis say “this cannot be the work of a Muslim” they are being sincere, even if they are not being accurate.
- But as the state makes a greater effort to rein in the most hardcore Sunni militants, it will be forced to confront the “good jihadis” who are frequently linked to the same networks. This confrontation will eventually happen, but between now and “eventually” lies much confusion and bloodshed.
- The Jihadist community will feel the pressure and the division between those who are willing to suspend domestic operations and those who no longer feel ISI has the cause of Jihadist Islam at heart will sharpen. The second group will be targeted by the state and will respond with more indiscriminate anti-Shia attacks. Just as in Iraq, jihadist gangs will blow up random innocent Shias whenever they want to make a point of any kind. Things (purely in terms of numbers killed) will get much worse before they get better. As the state opts out of Jihad (a difficult process in itself, but one that is almost inevitable, the alternatives being extremely unpleasant) the killings will greatly accelerate and will continue for many years before order is re-established. The worst is definitely yet to come. This will naturally mean an accelerating Shia brain drain, but given the numbers that are there, total emigration is not an option. Many will remain and some will undoubtedly become very prominent in the anti-terrorist effort (and some will, unfortunately, become special targets for that reason).
- IF the state is unable to opt out of Jihadist policies (no more “good jihadis” in Kashmir and Afghanistan and “bad jihadis” within Pakistan) then what? I don’t think even the strategists who want this outcome have thought it through. The economic and political consequences will be horrendous and as conditions deteriorate the weak, corrupt, semi-democratic state will have to give way to a Sunni “purity coup”. Though this may briefly stabilize matters it will eventually end with terrible regional war and the likely breakup of Pakistan. . Since that is a choice that almost no one wants (not India, not the US, not China, though perhaps Afghanistan wouldn’t mind) there will surely be a great deal of multinational effort to prevent such an eventuality.
- Sadly, the Tariq Ali type overseas/Westernized-elite Left will play no discernible role in any of this. If we do (God forbid) get to the nationalist-Sunni-coup phase, Pankaj Mishra may find something positive in it (“strength” and the willingness to stand up against imperialism being a high priority for him) but events will not fit into that framework for too long.

btw, the cartoons and the painting are the work of the highly talented Pakistani cartoonist and artist sabir nazar. http://pinterest.com/laiq/sabir-nazar-cartoons/
Finally, do NOT watch the following video if you cannot stand graphic content. But its real and everyone is always telling us how important it is to face reality. I am not sure, and have not watched it all myself. But here it is
Posted by omar at 12:15 AM | Permalink






















Comments
Dear Omar,
Thank you for the courage and honesty you have shown in writing this article (surely you must know that you could be targeted for speaking the truth so openly?)What a chilling, sobering piece...the video at the end is particularly horrifying. What savages. You were right because I could not bear to watch it to the end either. Your entire article has shaken me to the core, for many reason not the least of which is that I am a Shia doctor myself and would be the prime target for killing in Pakistan. While we are aware of what is going on for several years and hear of new atrocities regularly, it is entirely another experience to read your article and see a summary in black and white. Additionally, I recently lost one of my dearest Dow Medical College classmates and friend, Aslam "Babban" Mirza to this mindless violence, his crime being that he was a Shia practicing in Quetta, serving the people he grew up with selflessly. I can no longer even count the number of applications I receive from highly prominent Shia physicians in Pakistan, asking for jobs ANYWHERE in the US as long as they can get out of Pakistan and save their families. Some of them are heading departments and chairing college administrative positions and ALL of them opted to either stay back or return to Pakistan to serve the people they love. Your article is very timely and every Pakistani (and every human who cares about simple basic human rights) needs to do SOMETHING to stop this madness now. We are going to participate in "The 10,000 Rally" which is trying to get 10,000 people to keep a vigil outside the UN Headquarters in NY on December 7 starting at 11:00 a.m. to protest against the 10,000 Shias who have been killed worldwide solely on the basis of their Shia beliefs. Through this note, I would like to invite all individuals who care about human rights to join me in this 5 hour vigil. Surely this is not too much to ask of New Yorkers at least.
Thanks again, Omar, I am very grateful that you took the time to write this badly needed summary.
Azra.
Posted by: Azra Raza | Dec 3, 2012 7:43:44 AM
This Muharram, there was NOTHING on Pakistani TV for two days (9th and 10th Muharram) except the story of Karbala and the martyrdom of Imam Hussain. People were singing soz on every other channel. I found ONE channel which was playing some Indian serials so that people who were not that interested in Imam Hussain had something to watch! Ditto with the radio. Rehman Malik turned our mobile phones off for two days so there would not be attacks on Ashura processions!
The Pakistani State is going out of its way to push Shia-Sunni Unity (Not that that's a bad thing). But I think all these predictions of "Shia genocide" are highly over-rated. There is NO mass support for killing Shias. There is not even mass support for declaring Shias "non-Muslim". Shias don't believe in a prophet after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). They just believe that Hazrat Ali should have been Caliph after the Prophet. Perhaps there are some hardcore Shia who believe that Hazrat Ali was the rightful prophet (my dad told me some story about an alternate kalima). But most all of us Pakistanis are agreed that Shia are Muslim and they should not be killed (NOT that Ahmadis should be killed either--even if they are not "Muslim").
Let's not start predicting the next Holocaust or something. Pakistan has problems, but it is not as bad as the anti-Pak propaganda would have it.
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 3, 2012 10:52:57 AM
45 million to 54 million Shi'a in Pakistan on the low side: Those Muslims who admit to being of Shi’as are in the least case scenario 45-54 million people in Pakistan out of 180 million. Furthermore, most of the 180 million people of Pakistan whether Sunni or Shi'a practice a “Mullai form of Islam—they go to shrines, they believe in the intercession of their pirs and saints connect their lineage directly to the Prophet through his daughter Fatima and Ali. All the sufi saints connect themselves to Ali as their source to reaching God.
If one compares the population of Shi’a to the populations of most countries, but lets take Saudi Arabia—or any of the Gulf States or to Iran: Iran total population is at 74 million while Saudi Arabia totall population is at 27 million.
The population of Muslims who refer to themselves as Shi’a in Pakistan is significantly higher twice the population of Saudi Arabia—and almost the population of Iran.
Do the math: Either way whether you feel the need to estimate it as too high or as too low the irrefutable fact is that the number of people who are Shi’a in Pakistan alone is huge-- And I would warrant larger than the combined Wahabi population worldwide.
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 3, 2012 11:38:07 AM
Pakistan is going to implode with a Mushroom cloud over Isloo and Lahore .Allah doesnot allow such acts of hate to persist for long : Iraq used to kill Shias for sport..look what happened there.The American Taxpayer payed 1-3 Trillion USD S ,To give Iraq on a platter to Iran-- At the same time hating Iran. only Allah can decipher such happenings ..I have given up trying to find out what is "UP".
Posted by: Yousaf Hyat | Dec 3, 2012 11:44:00 AM
Maniza, what would you regard as a good source for the number of shia and sunni in Pakistan (and the world)? I will be happy to put that information in.
btw, regarding how strange shias seem to Indonesians, see this: http://www.brownpundits.com/2012/09/09/indonesia-and-the-shias/
Posted by: omar | Dec 3, 2012 11:48:04 AM
Omar Bhai, that is a strong and depressing as hell article. More power to you for writing it. And I hope that somehow, just somehow, we will find it in our power to avoid a social meltdown.
Posted by: FHN | Dec 3, 2012 12:28:26 PM
The images are disturbing...and depressing.
It just does not make sense, whether Sunnis killing Shias or Shias killing Sunnis. So much hatred. Why? The people behind the mobs who incite violence are the ones who need to be condemned.
"Bigotry is the sacred disease."
---Heraclitus (500 BC)
Posted by: waqnis | Dec 3, 2012 12:54:50 PM
A good starting point would be to do the math. The total population of Pakistan multiplied by your favorite percentage of Shi'a population and go with that.
How is that relevant to how strange Shi'a seem to Indonesians? Please clarify.
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 3, 2012 1:13:07 PM
Maniza, those are two separate questions.
1. What is the number of Shias in Pakistan (or the world)? This question does not really effect the substance of my article, but its important in a "get your facts straight" kind of way. When I say Pakistan is 5-25% Shia, that is a wide range. It would be better if I could give a more accurate number, but an accurage number seems to be hard to find. You gave some figures and I just wondered if you have any links to your sources. There was no other intent involved in my question. Whether there are 20 million shias or 50 million shias doesnt really change the fact that they are being targeted and that is wrong..and that their targeting will continue for the next few years as the war with the "bad taliban" heats up.
I did not make any comparison between the number of wahhabis and the number of Shias. I think you are correct in assuming that the number of Shias exceeds the number of Wahhabis. But anti-Shia feeling may extend beyond those who are formally Wahhabi (most ASWJ members in Pakistan are Deobandi, not Wahhabi, whatever that means).
2. The reference to Indonesia came in a different context. I was talking about how the Pakistani middle class was (and to some extent, still is) unaware of the fact that our own cultural experience of Shia beliefs is NOT standard in the Muslim world. As an example, I mentioned that Indonesia (the largest Muslim nation in the world) is having a lot of difficulty accepting that Shias even exist. Most Indonesians are completely unaware of Moharram rituals and the story of Karbala. You can do your own informal survey on this. That is not meant to justify Shia-hatred or anything else. It was just an illustration of the fact that what seemed normative to us (as middle class South Asian Muslims) is not really as universal as we thought. And from that I led on to Saudi Arabia, where they KNOW shias exist (they have millions of their own Shias) but they certainly do NOT feel the same way about Karbala as Sunnis in Pakistan used to feel. Nothing more was intended by that tangential remark.
Posted by: omar | Dec 3, 2012 2:30:46 PM
I don't wish to lessen the horror of the situation. But the figures seem all over the place.
I see the number 10,000 killed (says world wide). How much of that is Pakistan? Is it useful to mix up Pakistani Shias with other Shias? @Omar has numbers like 300 for 2012 (just one month).
The latest Economist says: "According to Hasan Murtaza, an independent researcher, 456 Shia have been killed in targeted attacks this year, more than double the casualties of 2011."
This doesn't say what happened 2009 and before, but presumably they were less?
It helps to get a clear idea of how big the problem is, and it doesn't help to have so many numbers floating around. That said, I have no special knowledge of the matter.
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 3, 2012 4:40:55 PM
@Maniza says: 45 million to 54 million Shi'a in Pakistan on the low side
Again, The Economist says the Shia population is 30mm.
Neither Maniza nor the Economist give a reference. Any pointers to some good research on this question?
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 3, 2012 4:43:25 PM
And could you clarify your point as to why Jinnah's response was fatuous, irrelevant or irreverant?
"Jinnah was Shia or Sunni was occasionally asked but Jinnah always parried it with the fatuous stock reply “was the holy prophet Shia or Sunni?” This irrelevant (and in some ways, irreverent) reply generally worked because theologial fine print was not then a priority for the superficially Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite.”
And can you please clarify who precisely are you referring to "as the superficially Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite.”
And in addition are you suggesting that this superficially Anglicized North Indian Muslim elite did not not understand what being Muslim meant?
Because your phraseology seems to suggest this.
And what is it that you mean when you link Imran Khan to Jinnah? And how do you link Imran Khan to the Muslim League of Jinnah's time? What is it that you find in common?
And kindly clarify how you equate being "an average Pakistani liberal" with not understanding Islam or actually perhaps being a scholar on Islam or theology. Because you seem to imply that. You seem to suggest that Zia understood theology more than an average Pakistani liberal.
While I agree with you that the primary factor for what we see in Pakistan today is Zia's work of willingly advancing the Saudi financed version of faith and biases against Shi'as (I would say against all non Wahabis) could you kindly clarify what you mean when you explain the factors contributing to the anti Shi'a sentiment: "A second and perhaps only locally important economic factor was the fact that there were some prominent Shia landlords and power-brokers in Southern Punjab.Anti-Shia polemics combined in those parts with what the Marxists would gleefully call “class issues” to further fuel a hardline Sunni revolt against the local Shia elite in these areas. " Which prominent landlords are you referring to?
Really, and this is contributing or causing Shi'a doctors to be murdered on a regular basis in Karachi on a regular basis since Musharraf came into power?
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 3, 2012 5:02:38 PM
Sundar, nobody seems to have exact numbers. But the article is generating some responses and I may have better numbers soon. The Hazaras seems to be keeping track of all killings (hyperlinked above) in their community. But I dont know if there is really a good nationwide database.
Maniza's questions:
why Jinnah's response was fatuous, irrelevant or irreverant?
Answer: Its fatuous because shia and sunni are divisions that developed AFTER the prophet died and to a large extent, they reflect contrasting views of what should have happened when he died. Obviously the prophet himself COULD NOT have been either Shia or Sunni. But he died, and he didnt leave clear instructions about what happens next...or, he left instructions and they were disregarded. Secondly, well after he died, Islam as a religion developed its own theology and various schools of thought about what Islam actually is. Those involved some sort of interpretation or understanding of what the prophet was, what he said and so on. People disagree about those details. Thats why they are Shia or Sunni or Khariji or whatever. They all have different views of what happened and what its supposed to mean. Its meaningless to say "was the prophet Shia or Sunni". He was neither, but YOU have to be something. There are many choices. You can accept what the twelver Imams say. You can accept what abu Hanifa says. You can develop your own vision of what it all means (thereby starting a brand new sect..if someone chooses to follow you. You can, of course, call it the anti-sect, but all other sects think they are not a sect, they are the correct version; good to keep that in mind). That reply is just ridiculous.
Gotta run. more later.
Posted by: omar | Dec 3, 2012 5:18:57 PM
Omar, on your response to my first question. I am surprise how clouded your thinking is about Jinnah's simple straight forward response in which he was trying to discourage this stupid divisive way of thinking. response was very relevant. If people consider themselves as Muslims, that is enough. There are only Muslims. It is not for anyone to judge or provide adjectives as to what kind of Muslim they are. But your answer is enlightening.
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 3, 2012 5:35:27 PM
On numbers pick any percentage you want and then translate it as an absolute number of the total population of 180 million. You will quickly reach the conclusion as to what an error it is to try to diminish the significance of Shi'as in Pakistan. From everything I have ever read on the subject that percentage is provide as 25-30 percent which by the way is the range presented in the article and elsewhere as well. It may be higher.
Omar, please keep in mind that there are 45- 54 million Shi'as in Pakistan minimum...... and they are not predominantly landlords, or doctors. They are absolutely in every way part and parcel of the fabric and tapestry of the country and region. They are in no way in numbers such that you can make reductionist predictions, as you have done, classifying them as "some will become" this and "some will become" that and some will leave Pakistan. They are not a separate group or strangers to Islam or cloistered "group" or culture in Pakistan as your article seems to suggest.
The reason "Shi'as are still not seen as outsiders" Omar is because they are not. That's because 45-54 million people at a minimum who have been living and practicing their traditions for centuries are not outsiders. The outsiders Omar are the remittance fueled Saudi wannabees.
The landscape of the entire country is dotted with Shrines that link themselves to the household of the Prophet and to Ali. And these shrines are central to the belief systems of the majority of Pakistan. And indeed this belief system and these shrines were and are under attack by Zia ul Haq and his followers who tried to subvert with the diversion of Aqaf and waqf funds and with help from his Saudi masters.
This type of presentation is reductionist and in fact a diminishing at so many levels that I think it actually serves to contribute to myths and to a justification of what is going on.
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 3, 2012 5:56:32 PM
I agree with Maniza,
In many cases you cannot tell who is Shia and who is Sunni. In many cases, people don't care. In my own family, my dad is technically Shia and my Mom is technically Sunni, but it's not an issue, we are just Muslim (of course, I'm not saying that my family is representative of Pakistan).
Re: numbers-- lets take 15% of 97% of 180 million. Shia are 15% of the MUSLIM population, not of the total population. This would give us around 26 million Shia in Pakistan. Seems reasonable right?
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 3, 2012 11:29:05 PM
Dear Br. Omar,
I was really skeptical about reading this piece, as I have read hundreds of such articles, and how they have been telling the same thing and how the government of Pakistan has shown no effort in helping the situation. Now, without creating any controversy I would like to add, that your name caught my attention; how Shias have a conception of certain names and unfortunately against a certain names, and as much as the educated lot would deny to the fact, Omar is one of the most controversial names.
I just wanted to see what Omar could write about Shia killings, and I must say you have not only give a "tight thappadh" on the face of the Government or the So-called anti-shias, but also the abusive and negative-mentality holding shias who judge a lot of people by their names and faith. This is just a thought that hit my head, and I wanted to share it.
The article is so well connected from the partition era till today, very well written, it made me sit up straight on my chair half-way through. May their be peace, and although I am an Indian, I always want to see peace in Pakistan, not only within, but also with the neighbors.
Regards,
Ali Zaidi, Mumbai, India
Posted by: Ali Zaidi | Dec 4, 2012 12:40:14 AM
the fruits of dividing humanity of name of religion are bitter and there is no end to divisons,shias ahemadis,barelvis,why being human is not enough?
I know many shias in India who are thankful that they are in infidel India rather than Pakistan.
Posted by: arindam chakrabarty | Dec 4, 2012 5:17:58 AM
Omar, coincidence?
Posted by: S. Abbas Raza | Dec 4, 2012 6:44:43 AM
Shias were not historically a “minority group” in the sense which modern identity politics talks about “minorities” (a definition that, sometimes unconsciously, includes some sense of being oppressed/marginalized by the majority).
Adding to that, Shias are still not considered a minority in Pakistan by the vast majority of people. Though our society considers itself "Islamic" in varying ways, its dealings do not reflect so. People identify themselves more with ethnic( or provincial) divisions than on religious grounds. Most, if not all, individual dealings take place in a secular manner, that is, without considering the sect of the person. Shia-Sunni marriages are more common than thought, and discrimination in recruitment based on religious differences is unheard of. This is to say that our society is vastly different from what is seen in the Middle East - Lebanon type divisions.
And this is exactly what the mullahs are trying to change. By calling on the masses to accept beliefs from the puritanical Deobandi sect, they seek to implement their version of Islam. This has met with considerable retaliation from the Barelwi sections of the society.
One important aspect to note over here are that the adverse socio-economic conditions that prevail in Pakistan feed into extremist hands. Most recruitments for the madrassahs come from extremely poor households. The state is unable to provide basic justice, healthcare and education to a large extent. As such, poor households see madrassah education as an alternative to expensive private schools.
Another thing, more often than not the mullahs (of both sects) end up doing more damage than good. Religio-political parties like Tehreek e jaferia (a shia party), Sunni Tehreek, (never mind the Jamaatis) seek to capitalise on religious identities, and in the process widen gaps that should otherwise be left alone. Parties like PPP and MQM, corrupt if they are, do not exploit such divisions, and under their umbrellas Shias and Sunnis come together without issues.
Sincerly,
A Pakistani Shia
Posted by: Taha Rizvi | Dec 4, 2012 8:14:13 AM
There have been some comments (here and on twitter) about my failure to pin the blame squarely on Deobandi terrorists. And why I brought TNT (two nation theory) and the gradual evolution of Pakistan in light of that theory into this piece. So a few thoughts.
I thought my piece was pretty clear about the fact that mainstream Sunni Islam in our parts historically did not have serious problems with Shias, and in large measure, still does not. I said very clearly that the state will genuinely try to stop this rot. And they will do so because a lot of Sunnis DON’T want a civil war with Shias. But why did the state permit (and even encourage) this poison in the first place? and why do some of them still have other priorities that work at cross purposes to the need to establish law and order? The eagerness to promote Jihadist killers and the difficulties in countering them both have a deep connection with TNT and the peculiar ideological confusions of the Pakistani state.
Its absolutely true that most of the anti-shia hatred was inserted via Saudi money and propaganda. They worked on existing factions that were already anti-shia (mostly Deobandis), but that were small prior to this cash infusion. Now they have grown. They have grown in other places where saudi money has come in, but the critical factor in Pakistan (what made Pakistan Jihad central and Shia-killing HQ) was the army’s decision to be the eager foster mother of the most hardcore fanatics the Saudis had linked up with.
It is still not a generic Shia versus Sunni clash. When it comes to serious violence, its a Deobandi/Wahhabi terrorists versus Shia clash. But Deobandis in India or England have obviously not killed so many Shias (or even made the attempt..yet) and wahhabis are not doing it like this in their own home country (Saudi Arabia) either. What sets us apart is the decision of the state (mostly, but not only, GHQ) to patronize the killers. To set up their networks. To give them carte blanche to arm and train and kill. To lose control of them. And to be unable to frontally confront them.
Many factors played into this. Zia’s personal leanings were one, but no chief can impose his personal leanings on an army that is convinced of something opposite. What made colonel Imam and Brigadier X think it was all a good idea? thats where the slow but steady pressure from TNT and the gradual growth of modern education and Maudoodism play a role. Minds (low IQ minds, but still, minds) had notions of an Islamic state with Islamic laws, of the endless struggle with Hindu India, of the denial of “superstitions” and “hindu rituals” and the need for Islamic purity. They may not have fully grasped (or wanted) the anti-shia part of the jihadi-Islamist package to begin with, but when it came, it didnt shock all of them either. They were able to assimilate it. They had not heard a lot of the polemic before, but they were ready to accept the argument once it was made, complete with support from holy texts and Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani.
And so on.
This will become another article. Or more likely, my line of thoughts (or lines of thought) will become clearer as I post comments, tweets and posts and they sort of add up. I am sure people will still disagree with many things I say, but at least WHAT I am trying to say will be clearer.
Posted by: omar | Dec 4, 2012 10:47:49 AM
Omar, you are delusional if you think that somehow this will get better. The Pakistani state will NEVER take action against the hardcore Sunni militants.
Pakistan will get what it deserves - "death by a thousand cuts", it's infamous strategy in its plot to dominate Hindu India.
Islam is based upon separation and the murder of the "other." You Pakistanis murdered 2 million plus Bengali Hindus in 1971, having previously essentially eliminated the Hindu population in post-partition modern day Pakistan.
Now that the polytheists are eliminated, Islam must find the "other" to replace him, and Shias will suffice at this stage.
Pakistan has only one destiny: Complete and utter annihilation.
Posted by: X | Dec 4, 2012 11:09:41 AM
Frightened but will resist what is going on: This insistence on creating this ridiculous and false Shi'a and Sunni divide with this thin lethal wedge of Wahabi petrodollar fueled hatred laced with the imperatives of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq--trying to cut and divide like a box cutter knife.
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 4, 2012 12:01:58 PM
There is an 11 year war going on in Afghanistan on the foundations of the previous war and its by products and that war is spilling over into Pakistan as well as being supplied and staged from Pakistan. There are many war related agendas at play.
The spike in violence in Pakistan must be seen in the context of the war in Afghanistan The country is full of weapons in the hands of civilians with many different agendas ranging from religious to drug mafias and other mafias.
As the war rages on violence against civilians, continues to rise in Pakistan and is seen as violence along ethnic, political and sectarian divides. In addition there are drone attacks taking place on a daily basis that also have civilian casualties.
In 2012 alone in the first five months over 740 people were killed in Karachi . That figure by September has gone up to over 1250 people. Last year 1750 people were killed in Karachi (here). This is in Karachi alone. Over the past decade over 8000 people have been killed in Karachi. Another article on the killings and who was killed in Karachi in 2012 is here.
According to Huma Yusuf over 7000 people have been killed in Karachi since 2008. Report here.
The total number of people killed all over the country due to violence is much larger, based on the website (here) the civilian casualties are over 14,000. I do not know who has set up this website but here are figures on killings in Pakistan due to violence 2003-22012 (here)
I could not find information on the total number of civilan killings in Pakistan in the HRW report for 2011 or 2012.
Of the total number of people killed all over Pakistan , Shi’a targeting killings are as high as 375 people (here). The murdered are all victims of targeted killings because they were Shi ‘a. Another report puts the number of killed at 400 since January 2012 (here)
All the links that don't seem to work in the text above are here:
http://dawn.com/2012/06/05/at-least-740-killed-in-karachi-in-five-months-hrc
http://tribune.com.pk/story/403671/six-month-hrcp-report-in-karachi-being-apolitical-is-the-bloodiest/
http://www.usip.org/files/resources/PW82.pdf
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/casualties.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/world/asia/pakistans-hazara-shiites-under-siege.html?smid=tw-share
http://www.globalresearch.ca/target-killing-mass-murder-of-shia-minority-in-pakistan/5303348
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 4, 2012 4:50:31 PM
I have been hearing about Pakistan's imminent demise for decades now. Why do I get the feeling some of these problems are exaggerated?
A quote from Adam Smith:
One day Sinclair brought Smith the news of the surrender of Burgoyne at Saratoga in October 1777, and exclaimed in the deepest concern that the nation was ruined. "There is a great deal of ruin in a nation," was Smith's calm reply.
P.S. Predictably, the U.S has been blamed... dark mutterings about "war related agendas"...
Am surprised it took this long in the thread for the US to be blamed...
P.P.S @Maniza: "box cutter knife"? That is offensive.
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 4, 2012 6:12:52 PM
Sundar
Regarding your quote, the difference is that Pakistan is not a nation - it is an artificial construct based upon a crude Arab religion.
In fact, technically, Pakistan's demise occurred 4 decades ago. Unless of course the breakup post 1971 is what you are referring too :)
Posted by: To Sundar | Dec 4, 2012 8:50:41 PM
Predictably, the U.S has been blamed... dark mutterings about "war related agendas"...
Am surprised it took this long in the thread for the US to be blamed...
Am doubly surprised, Sundar, that the "Zionists" haven't yet been blamed.
Posted by: Ivan Ellis | Dec 4, 2012 9:21:59 PM
Sundar and To-Sundar,
My own view (repeated endlessly in my various posts) is that Pakistan is going to be around for a long time. Its heartland is geographically and economically very integrated now. And in any case, it is very hard to break up post-colonial states. Most of the borders have problems, but changing them would involve murder and mayhem on an even bigger scale; more to the point, getting neighbors and world powers to agree on the rearrangement is very hard. The usual compromise is to stick to the borders you have. At least dejure. And this is doubly so if you have nukes.
East Pakistan was probably the most anomalous of the various postcolonial anomalies and even that needed a very fortuitous combination of dumb Pakistani political leadership, dumber Pakistani military leadership, much Bengali suffering and above-average Indian military leadership (e.g. General Sagat Singh)and Indira Gandhi (for all her problems, she did have strong nerves) to finally happen.
Of course that does mean that Pakistan as it was created did NOT survive too long (unlike most postcolonial blunders). But somehow neither Pakistanis nor outsiders imagined Bengalis as "real Pakistanis"; that whole event just registers as a blip in the onward march of the "real Pakistan". And that real Pakistan is very likely to survive. Even the Western lands, currently partly out of our hands, are probably going to be re-integrated into the state over time (though with signficant bloodshed along the way).
Its not impossible to envision a breakup, but if you think about it, only some truly insane GHQ scheme (a scheme insane enough to lead to total war with India PLUS a superpower) can end with a breakup. All other scenarios lead to an intact Pakistan. Corruption, killings, bombings, insurgencies, those are not terminal diseases. Other countries have seen worse (Rwanda, even Sri Lanka in some ways) and got through it.
The modern state is hard to kill. Exceptions only prove the rule.
But your comment did remind me of a dialog my mom had with an older gentleman in 1975.
Older Gent: Pakistan tut jana ain ik din. (Pakistan will breakup one day)
Mom: X bhai, tussi tey vee saal da ay ee keh rahey o (You have been saying this for 20 years).
Gent: tey, adha tut nahin gaya? (so, didnt half of it just break off?)
Mom, for several long moments, didnt get it. She really didnt realize that half of it did break up just 4 years before this conversation.
1971 registered heavily as a "defeat against India", but although the words breakup of Pakistan were commonly used, it didnt register that way at some deep level. WE were still the same. Some peripheral thing had been lost.
Posted by: omar | Dec 4, 2012 11:42:27 PM
"Pakistan is NOT a Nation--It is an artificial construct"
WOW, that is so offensive! Pakistan IS a nation and it has been a nation since 1947--EXACTLY as long as the Republic of India has been a nation!.
There was NO India before that-- It is British India and a bunch of Princely States, before that it was Mughal India! Are you offended Sunder? Do you realize when you Hindutvadis tell Pakistanis that we don't exist as a nation, we just hate you more?
DON'T EVER TRY TAKING MY IDENTITY AS A PAKISTANI AWAY FROM ME!
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 5, 2012 12:44:04 AM
@Kabir: I think you are confusing "To Sundar" with me. I am not interested in taking away anybody's identity. (I am a little nervous because you used ALL CAPS :)
@Omar, that was a great anecdote...
@Ivan, you have ruined my experiment. I was waiting to see how long before the other usual suspects were blamed.
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2012 8:16:14 AM
Sundar,
Sorry, you are right. I confused you with "To Sundar".
His or her remark is truly offensive. If Pakistan is not a nation, than neither is India. Both have existed as nation-states for the exact same amount of time. If Pakistan is an artificial construct, all nations are artificial constructs.
It is true that there was no "India" prior to 1947. There was British India, before that there was the Mughal Empire, before that there was the Delhi Sultanate, before that there was something else. All of what is now India was NEVER United as a nation. But what's the point? Does that make India any less legitimate? NO, therefore the whole idea that Pakistan is "artificial" is totally beside the point.
If we are not Pakistani, what are we? Indian Muslims? Most of us don't want to have anything to do with India and we don't want to be Indian Muslims, we are quite happy being Pakistani.
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 5, 2012 8:53:52 AM
Sundar,
Your experiment was already compromised. The usual suspects had been named in the article itself! "a jew named ibn e saba started the Shia fitna".
Of course, I am kidding. While the occasional "elders of Zion" theorist can visit any website, I would not expect that kind of crude allegation to be standard on this blog. The predominant theme among us-people (highly educated liberals) is US imperialism and the perils of capitalism. (usually paraphrased as "the empire", an evocative word that needs no further explanation among those who know).
I personally prefer Bob Marley's term "Babylon system" (especially when said with a Jamaican accent. I think Jamaican is the loveliest English accent in the world) but somehow that hasnt caught on to the same extent as "the empire" or its blessed center (if we are feeling especially pretentious) "the metropole".
For your pleasure, a random result from Google: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/urban/sites/www.sas.upenn.edu.urban/files/Roy-21st%20Century%20Metropolis_0.pdf
Posted by: omar | Dec 5, 2012 9:35:11 AM
@Kabir, no worries. My identity cupboard is full at the moment. If some space opens up, I may come by to strip you of yours.
@Omar, your comments are interesting and entertaining. As always.
"Marxism has become an intellectual vice. It is the superstition of the 20th century". Octavio Paz
Not familiar with the Marley stuff, but am sure its good for a few chuckles. Will add it to my list of Marxist BS phrases... e.g. hegemony, Gramscian etc.
As regards the fevered imagination of some people, I am sure that @Maniza did not mean to inject 9/11 conspiracies into the Shia issue (Or did she? what else are we to make of the box cutter reference?)
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2012 10:06:10 AM
@Omar... Is that paper by Ananya Roy a parody?
The sooner we defund large parts of the UC system the better.
You made my day... Hahaha "dynamics of exurbanity".... thats a new one....
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2012 10:10:22 AM
Omar,
First, thanks (what a strange word in the context!) for this article. It's hard to imagine what motivates such purblind murderousness, though Lucretius probably pegged it: Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
As for your link to "New Geographies of Theory", no thanks at all! My brain destroyed several million synapses trying to make it past the first page. It's depressing to think that such balderdash is produced in earnest at madrassas for educated liberals!
Posted by: Ivan Ellis | Dec 5, 2012 10:39:55 AM
@Kabir
"If we are not Pakistani, what are we? Indian Muslims? Most of us don't want to have anything to do with India and we don't want to be Indian Muslims, we are quite happy being Pakistani."
How much I wish that you were correct. But unfortunately you aren't.
If the muslims of Pakistan really don't want anything to do with India why was Ordu (an Indian language which originated in India's cow-belt, with still 4 times as many mother-tongue speakers in India than in Pakistan) adopted as the national language of Pakistan? Why not speak Arabic, Farsi or Turkic like your fictional forebears?
If you do choose to speak and do business in an Indian language, why be a hypocrite and deny the obvious Indian cultural link? And I haven't even started on the obviously Indic nature of Pakistan's history and geography, which I don't have the time or the inclination for.
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 5, 2012 11:03:57 AM
I am sure the paper is not a parody.
But look at it this way, some Indian girl (is Ananya a girl name? Would Roy be Bengali) figured out at a tender age that there is (a little) gold in them thar hills. I like to imagine her chuckling as she swigged cheap beer to celebrate the acceptance of that paper and the improvement in her chances of obtaining tenure at her (rather low paid, but still, the work isnt exactly hard) "job".
Didnt Keynes say something about having people dig holes and fill them in?
As long as no one gets hurt, its a very humane way to keep intelligent people alive, sheltered and reasonably well fed.
Of course, in real life she probably earnestly and sincerely believes she is fighting tirelessly against "the man".
But we can always dream.
"Babylon system" is the system of ownership and exploitation that brought Africans into their horrendous exile as slaves to the Americas. It is also the system of commercial efficiency and social oppression in general. I didnt mean to bracket "babylon system" with the other bullshit you mention. I like Bob Marley.
Posted by: omar | Dec 5, 2012 11:10:32 AM
"is Ananya a girl name? Would Roy be Bengali"
Probably to the first, yes to the second.
Ananya is Sanskrit. The prefix "an", cognate with the English "un", Greek "an" or Latin "in", indicates negation. "anya", ending with the short vowel /a/, means "other". So "ananya" implies "(that which has) no other", i.e. unique.
However, unlike Sanskrit orthography, the Roman orthography that we use in English does not distinguish between long/short vowels. So, if by the terminal vowel in "ananya" you mean short /a/, then it is masculine/neuter gender, but if it is a long vowel /A/, then it is feminine.
Regarding "roy", it is the corruption of Middle Prakrit "rAi" (cf. Skt. "rAjA", trans. king/lord). The /A/ > /o/ phonetic change is typical of the Bengali language. Hence "roy" is Bengali. Eg. the first name of the Nobel laureate "Amartya Sen" is pronounced "Omortto".
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 5, 2012 12:27:57 PM
And here she is, Distinguished Chair in Global Poverty and Practice.
all my fantasies of a very smart and cynical young Bengali girl who is enjoying herself smoking weed and listening to Bob Marley as her computer program generates random pomo bullshit to keep her barely employed have now been dashed.
She is apparently a full blown workaholic and a great success.
http://www.ced.berkeley.edu/faculty/roy_ananya/
Posted by: omar | Dec 5, 2012 12:38:55 PM
So you felt it was okay to trash a person randomly? Just go google--find a paper-randomly-that suits your particular target for dislike---then target her---look up the persons profile--characterize her the way you did--and post her profile as well'? What would you call that kind of behavior?
Posted by: Maniza | Dec 5, 2012 1:41:19 PM
Arzan,
Urdu (it's not spelled the way you spelled it btw) is Pakistan's national language. It was the language of educated South Asian Muslims.
I don't know about "fictional forebearers" but the great poets of Urdu were born in what is now Pakistan-- including Allama Iqbal and Faiz Ahmed Faiz.
Urdu may be an Indian language (but not in the Republic of India sense, in the Indian subcontinent sense), BUT Pakistanis are still a distinct people and we have our own identity.
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 5, 2012 2:11:34 PM
Maniza, I only trashed myself by revealing my lazy-bum fantasies. It was very clear from my first comment that I did not know the author and was only kidding when I said: "I like to imagine her chuckling as she swigged cheap beer to celebrate the acceptance of that paper and the improvement in her chances of obtaining tenure at her (rather low paid, but still, the work isnt exactly hard) "job". "
I did add "Of course, in real life she probably earnestly and sincerely believes she is fighting tirelessly against "the man". "
As it turns out, she is at a higher level in the food chain than I had lightheartedly and (clearly) jokingly imagined.
Do note that once I saw who she is, I was the first to admit that she is "a workaholic and a great success".
Her paper can be trashed or admired or ignored like any paper thats out there. What did you think of it? did you like it?
In any case, its hardly original for people to make fun of pomo bullshit. Its a well-respected and well-established genre of internet humor. Check this out: http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/
Posted by: omar | Dec 5, 2012 2:13:48 PM
What? We have to pay for Ananya Roy to produce her papers AND we are not allowed to mock her? This is getting pretty close to Gulag conditions.
Hey whats the worst that can happen? Maybe Ms. Roy will end up "planning" my town, and then I will probably regret taking pot shots at her...
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2012 2:49:58 PM
"Am doubly surprised, Sundar, that the "Zionists" haven't yet been blamed."
Ivan, check this:
"A Strategy For Israel in the Nineteen Eighties" by Oded Yinon
Posted by: Masud Awan | Dec 6, 2012 6:55:39 AM
Kabir,
There's nothing sacrosanct about spelling "Ordu". I just tend to spell it the way we pronounce it in my mother tongue (Kashmiri).
In fact, by a happy coincidence "Ordu" also happens to be closer to the actual pronunciation of the Turkic word for a military camp (cf. Turk. "Ordu", Engl. "horde"), which the language derives its name from.
You are grossly mistaken to think that Ordu was/is the language of educated South Asian muslims. It was the language of educated muslims of the cow-belt (and to a lesser extent of the Deccan).
Educated muslims in peninsular India speak/write Marathi, Kannada, Malayalam and, most importantly, Tamil.
Educated muslims of Bengal spoke and speak Bengali (a Pakistani, of all people, ought to know this one).
Educated muslims of Kashmir speak and write poetry in Kashmiri.
Educated muslims of Gujarat/Kutcch speak, write and even sing in Gujarati and Kutcchi.
Educated muslims of Pukhtunkhwa spoke, wrote and composed poetry in Pukhto.
Ordu was and still is (in India) limited to the people of India's cowbelt, i.e. the region east of the Yamuna river to the lower riparian of the Ganges in Bihar. The only reason why this language carries any weight/importance is the sheer number of (largely poor and easy-to-exploit) people living in this area (25% of India's population).
And please don't make me quote the number of Ordu poets, both male and female, from Lakhnau alone (let alone Delhi, Agra, Azamgarh, Aligarh or Gorakhpur), which far surpasses any minuscule number in the parts of Punjab which are now in Pakistan.
Ordu is, fairly and squarely, an Indian language. Not in any "subcontinental" sense, but in the literal sense of the word Indian, i.e. originating from a small (and pretty backward) part of India. Heck! it wasn't even called Ordu before the 18th century CE.
Linguistically speaking, Ordu is an "elite" register of the Western and Central Hindustani dialect cluster, with more than its usual smattering of Perso-Arabic vocabulary. Basically the rural Indian language pretending to be Persian (quite akin to the development of 17th century English, which was the rural Anglo-Saxon tongue pretending to be Norman French).
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 6, 2012 8:36:31 AM
Arzan,
Fine-- let me qualify my earlier statement. Urdu is the lingua franca of educated South Asian Muslims. It is also the national language of Pakistan and part of Pakistan's unique (different from India) identity. That's the reality.
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 6, 2012 10:01:54 AM
"Urdu is the lingua franca of educated South Asian Muslims"
No. No. No. (as the good ol' Maggie would say!)
Ordu is the "buzzword" used in north India mainly by muslims (but also by a SIGNIFICANT minority of Hindus) to describe a whole range of dialects of Hindustani.
Usage of Ordu in Pakistan got an impetus from Indian muslim immigrants, who could'nt speak the local Punjabi/Sindhi/Pukhto etc.
Ironically Ordu makes Pakistan more, not less, Indic. It even ensures the enduring popularity of Indian Hindi Cinema and Television and contributes to the on-going cultural domination of Pakistan by its larger and more diverse neighbour.
So much for the notions of uniqueness!
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 6, 2012 10:19:07 AM
@Arzan, Thanks for interesting note on history of Urdu (which seems to have as many spellings as Qadaffi :)
Why can't Pakistan share some cultural features with India and others with Persian, Arab and Turkic cultures? Doesn't seem like a big problem to me. Thats the way it looks to me from the outside...
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 6, 2012 11:06:33 AM
@Arzan
Gosh you are quite the linguist. I like looking for common words and grammatical connections amongst languages myself and my girlfriend is doing MPhil in Linguistics from JNU, Delhi. So, it was good fun reading your comments. Keep 'em coming.
Posted by: Ambuj | Dec 6, 2012 12:03:24 PM
Urdu was being spoken in Pakistan even before Partition. It had to do with education and class. My ancestors studied Urdu in college in Lahore even before 1947.
But yes, you have a point that Jinnah made Urdu the national language of Pakistan because Muhajirs from the UP were the backbone of the Pakistan movement.
Posted by: Kabir | Dec 6, 2012 12:17:16 PM
@Masud Awan
Thanks for proving Sundar correct.
But I already know everything there is to know about Zionists from this essential work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Posted by: Ivan Ellis | Dec 6, 2012 12:24:49 PM
Aah, so we have a winner!
But since it took Masud sahib 5 days to find the Zionist hand, the judges are going to void this result. In 5 days I can probably find some colonel from Sierra Leone who published a plan for world domination in 1969. 5 days is just too long.
btw, "Pakistan" itself has published plans for world domination in great detail. e.g. http://rupeenews.com/2011/06/pakasia-the-future-of-pakistan/
btw, since i dont keep up with that literature, can someone find links to some Hindutva plan for world domination? if one does not exist that would be truly unusual.
Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2012 1:07:21 PM
The whole region is in a shit-fight. There's a 10% minority of Twelver Shia Alawites hanging on in Syria. This is not a battle of ethno-nationalism, Syria is 90% Arab, it is blatant sectarianism that will likely engulf the region.
Posted by: Troy | Dec 6, 2012 2:23:21 PM
"Pakistanis are still a distinct people."
Since 1947? Love it. More proof of the classic notion, usually attributed to Ernest Renan, that a nation is "a group of people united by a mistaken view of their past and a hatred of their neighbours."
Posted by: big joe | Dec 6, 2012 2:38:21 PM
Kabir
Lahore is a very special case. Because it was the capital of the multi-lingual Sikh Empire and then the provincial capital of the Punjab under the British, the city was extremely cosmopolitan by Punjab's standards and Persian remained in administrative and official use till the late 19th century.
Furthermore, with the decay of Moghal Delhi, there was a migration of many literate people (mainly Hidustani-speaking Kayasths from the Gengetic belt, who formed the bulk of the administrative/taxation/clerical workforce of the Moghals and, therefore, had a working knowledge of Persian) from Delhi and beyond into Lahore seeking employment in the local government. Locals Punjabi, who knew peasantry and warfare well, but not much of administration or finance weren't recruited. And Lahore quickly became a city of urban Hindustani/Urdu speaking people. Many of the Urdu speakers of Lahore before the Partition were actually Hindus, who were replaced by Muslim immigrants from India after the Partition.
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 6, 2012 3:00:59 PM
"can someone find links to some Hindutva plan for world domination?"
The Hindutva-types or "chuddies" as we are wont to lovingly refer to them, just want a Hindu shuddh-sthan, a half-arsed variant of Nazi Germany where swastika will be the national emblem, Sanskrit (like Hebrew) will be resurrected, cows used as a form of legal tender, muslims will be made to "understand" the glories of the pre-Islamic utopian past of their ancestors and suddenly, in this "rAm rAjya" poverty, malnutrition, corruption, crime and general Indian third-worldliness will vanish into thin air.
On a serious note, India is too large and too diverse (literally a sixth of humanity) for any single political vision (righ-wing or otherwise) to properly fashion the country in its image.
Posted by: Arzan Toshkhani | Dec 6, 2012 3:25:28 PM
Thank you Arzan, for the pithy description of the Hindutva-fascist utopia. And you are right that world domination is probably not their agenda. Ironically, they too yearn for a "Land of the Pure," a Hindu mirror image of their next door neighbor in the west but within the "sacred" confines of Bharat Mahaan. Given India's size and diversity, it's not likely to happen - not in the foreseeable future anyway. But laughable as it may be, it is crucial that Indians remain alert and vigilant. Fascism has a way of creeping up on a nation.
Posted by: Ruchira | Dec 6, 2012 5:00:26 PM
"But since it took Masud sahib 5 days to find the Zionist hand, the judges are going to void this result. In 5 days I can probably find some colonel from Sierra Leone who published a plan for world domination in 1969. 5 days is just too long."
Even if the aim is to ridicule some one, it does not help to have your judgement impaired, seeing only what is apparent, as for example your conclusion that
I mut have read your article 5 days ago and not today!
If above article does not interest you then 'Project For New American Century' may be worth your look. The authors are not ordinary people.
Posted by: Masud Awan | Dec 6, 2012 6:10:53 PM
@Ivan
Wikipedia where history is written by you and me the way it suits us!!
Posted by: Masud Awan | Dec 6, 2012 7:28:28 PM
@Masud
The authors are not ordinary people.
Wow... just wow!
Posted by: Ivan Ellis | Dec 6, 2012 10:55:15 PM
@Omar, Since this thread was originally about Shias, I think this may be of interest:
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-31May04-Print-Edition/1605200441.htm
Hows that for a conspiracy theory connecting the Hunood and the Shia?
Posted by: Sundar | Dec 7, 2012 7:54:35 AM
We had some discussion of this topic on our blog http://www.brownpundits.com/2012/11/30/karbala-lahore-and-hussaini-brahmins/
Most of these stories are completely made-up, but Indian contacts with Arabia are very old. A common boy's name in Saudi Arabia is "Muhannad", which means "from Hind..i.e. Indian". I asked an educated Saudi about that and he told me that its because a very high quality sword in ancient times came from India (Indian steel had a very good reputation, probably not as good as Damascus steel, but still, there was a vast tradition of craftsmanship) and given the desert Arabs very Macho culture, they frequently named boys "muhannad" in honor of that sword.
The conspiracies run deep.
MY favorite conspiracy theory is the Persian insistence that Islam itself was created with vital and indispensible Persian input. The story is supposed to be that the prophet set the ball rolling but it was Salman Farsi (one of the companions of the prophet and known to be Persian) who gave him all his best ideas. A shadow of this can be found in the various Shia heresies that spouted after Karbala, one of which included the notion of a trinity that included Salman Farsi as the holy ghost. See here.
You should read up on early shia variants (now referred to as ghulat, false, but of course that mostly means they are not the ones that made it past history's somewhat arbitrary gatekeeper..and who knows what stories will come back from the dead))..its absolutely fascinating stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat
See here.
Posted by: omar | Dec 7, 2012 8:55:00 AM
I think that book link mangled the comment. You can try and read it here: http://www.brownpundits.com/2012/11/30/karbala-lahore-and-hussaini-brahmins/#comment-35562
Posted by: omar | Dec 7, 2012 8:57:21 AM
@omar
"Indian steel had a very good reputation, probably not as good as Damascus steel"
Indian steel is (apparently) Damascus steel
Other links about Wootz steel:
Indian Institute of Science
Nature
Posted by: Arjun | Dec 10, 2012 10:37:14 AM
Arjun, thanks. One lives and learns.
Posted by: omar | Dec 10, 2012 11:02:02 AM
As clear-headed an account of the Shia-Sunni divide in Pakistan as any I have read.
Posted by: irfan husain | Dec 11, 2012 1:23:06 AM
Ref: Omar Ali's snarky comment about astute observers commenting on why Jinnah converted to Shia Islam...
Jinnah converted to Shia Khoja faith in 1898 long before he entered politics.
And the Muslim League was dominated by Ismailis not 12ers all through out the first 20 years 1906-1926. So "astute observers" fail to explain if Jinnah's conversion to Shia Islam was political expediency, why didn't he convert to Sunnism or stay an Ismaili because both communities were better placed than 12er Shias.
But when you are prejudiced you are prejudiced. I didn't expect any veracity or attention to detail from someone like Omar Ali.
Posted by: YLH | Jan 12, 2013 12:15:35 PM
At YLH's request, I already removed that line about "astute observers" having noted that 12er Shia identity was a better political choice for Jinnah. It was an unnecessary line but it was never there as "fact' but as opinion.
btw, This is where that opinion came from: http://www.viewpointonline.net/jinnah-qthe-quaidq.html
Posted by: omar | Jan 12, 2013 1:21:13 PM
For more on the Good-Jihadi Bad-Jihadi background to the growth of LEJ: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/malik-siraj-akbar/pakistans-other-taliban_b_1898848.html
Posted by: omar | Jan 12, 2013 1:27:05 PM
I am a Sunni ( Hanafi ),what my parents or clan was . I am not a religious person , but since I read and follow a Chishtia icon Baba Farid Ud Din Gunj Shakar ,I am Sunni enough . I have throughout my life considered Shias as my brothers ,sisters and friends . So did every normal person in Pakistan .Rulers rule on the pretext that normal life should contrinue . But all rulers in Pakistan were anti people , liers ,thieves and marauders . Zia Ul Haque was a product of this irresponsible system of government .Army used to be a fantasy saviour . They never were and now probably are not even organised enough to rule or misrule . Week we always were but it was no excuse for killing each other . It is some other powers that exploit our weaknesses. So it not we who are twisting the tale by misreding our history it twisting of our Tail by others .WHO ;your guess is as good as mine .What is the conclusion ? If you need a murderer or Kabza group for hire ,hire one of these militants . Success guarnteed .Examples are many ,but muder of Benazir is the most horrible example !
Posted by: omar | Jan 12, 2013 3:54:16 PM
Such a blatantly biased article especially when it came to Jinnah and the genesis of the Pakistan movement. The author clearly confuses his own opinions as facts.
Posted by: Maestro96 | Jan 13, 2013 12:33:27 AM
Another bit of Omar Ali's deliberate distortion of history:
"The leaders of the Muslim league in general and the great leader in particular seem to have thought that once a Muslim state had been founded, it would function as a kind of Muslimized version of British India. The same commissioners and deputy commissioners, selected by the same civil service examinations, would rule over the “common people” while a thin (and thinly educated) crust of Muslim landlords and other “Ashraaf” lorded it over them."
I can't comment about every Muslim Leaguer, but in so far as the great leader i.e. Jinnah is concerned, his entire legislative career was aimed at political reforms, greater responsible government and a curbing of bureaucratic powers. It is clear that Omar Ali has read very little on Jinnah's contributions to development of parliamentary form of government in India. Ian Byrant Wells' Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity details this. I am sorry but this quote above just flies in the face of history.
As for the class make up of the Pakistan Movement ... Hamza Alavi the Marxist theorist came up with the Salariat Theory which blows this claim about landlords etc to bits. In fact it is not possible to put one label on the kind of people who supported the Pakistan Movement. The communist party supported Jinnah and the Muslim League through out. In Bengal, it was peasant nationalism against Bhadralok.
Nor was it racism and anti-indianism as Omar Ali deliberately tries to twist it.
In fact Indianism was very much part of the idea. Jinnah famously said in 1942 that the idea of Pakistan was predicated on the fact that Muslims were Indians, and the idea was India for Indians, all Indians. So I am afraid most of the claims made by Omar Ali are based on shoddy research. For example he admits to using a poorly researched piece from Viewpointonline as a source. Here was my rebuttal to that particular piece.
http://pakteahouse.net/2012/08/19/important-corrective-to-distortion-of-history-by-viewpointonline/
It is unfortunate that Omar Ali decided to use this great tragedy of Hazaras to get into an irrelevant and ridiculous debate about partition and Jinnah.
Ayesha Jalal, H M Seervai and others have written enough on how partition happened. Sadly some are still stuck in Indian nationalist mythology/Pakistan studies narratives to grow up.
Posted by: YLH | Jan 13, 2013 2:46:43 AM
YLH, I support your efforts to remodel the ideology of Pakistan.
About the question of what it was in the minds of its founders, it was many things, and interpretations of their motives are a dime a dozen. I will be the first to agree that the confused politics of that era (or any era) cannot be simplified into a few pages without doing violence to the complex human motivations and errors that actually existed. Jinnah and his friends said many things that would shock an average pakistani today and they also said things that contradict each other.
But in the end,
"by their fruits shall ye know them"
Posted by: omar | Jan 13, 2013 8:35:56 PM
For an update: http://www.brownpundits.com/2013/01/14/massacre-on-alamdar-road/
Posted by: omar | Jan 14, 2013 9:49:44 AM
Unfortunately the updates continue.. http://www.brownpundits.com/2013/02/16/shia-genocide-connect-the-dots/
Posted by: omar | Feb 17, 2013 12:41:15 PM
striking closer and closer to home http://www.brownpundits.com/2013/02/18/the-last-of-the-mohicans/
Posted by: omar | Feb 18, 2013 6:26:24 PM
An excellent and prophetic article.
The way Shias are being painted into a corner in Pakistan from a situation where they were equal members of the country's society only a few decades ago, recalls to mind how Hindus and Muslims who had fought the British shoulder to shoulder in 1857 could by astute British policy be so far separated as to claim to belong to different nations in less than a few decades.
The same thing seems to be happening in Pakistan now with Saudi money and their ideology playing the role of the British colonial policy of an earlier era.
If the trajectory of colonial India is destined to repeat itself, then we have a division of Pakistan on our hands.
There is nothing to stop another Jinnah from emerging from among the Pakistani Shias, to claim that the Shias in Pakistan constitute a separate nation and their safety and well-being can only be ensured if a separate country is made for them within today's Pakistan.
The US might be willing to go by this logic, given its sense of betrayal by the Pakistanis in the current war. Iran would gleefully fish in troubled waters.
It could lead to a repeat of the partition riots too, and millions could die, but haven't someone said, those who don't learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat it.
Omar is right, TNT is lethal stuff, the sooner it is given a decent burial in Pakistan, the better for that country. Pakistan should develop as a modern, secular nation, emphasising its strong South Asian (if the use of the word Indian is offensive to some) ethos of respect for all religions.
Omar is being too optimistic in believing that Pakistan is too well integrated by the colonial experience for this to happen.
It took only a matter of a few decades for the idea of Pakistan to mature and divide the composite culture of India that had evolved over a thousand years of interaction with Muslims and other immigrants to India.
Posted by: Kabir | Apr 20, 2013 6:35:18 AM
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