November 22, 2012
How Not to Talk about Gaza
Colin Dayan in the Boston Review:
Talking about Gaza is like talking about God. We face the ineffable. We cannot talk about what we see. Or if we do, we are accused of lacking common sense, failing to take a realistic approach to an unmanageable problem.
What is that problem? Palestinians are the problem. Like so many others in our world today, Palestinians are labeled as “terrorists” by the powerful, so that lethal force is the rule and extreme violence—or exemplary disregard—may be directed indiscriminately against civilians and non-civilians alike. The problem is not a simple one. If we pretend it is, then we risk validating those who hold Israel to an unfair standard, or worse, who question its right to exist. And in protesting Israeli government policy, expressing horror at its brutal excesses, we risk being condemned as “anti-Semitic” or worse, as “self-hating Jews.”
The tired debates about the history of Zionism and the threat of the Palestinian national movement—or, put more bluntly, about the end of Israel and what Jonathan S. Tobin calls “a war with Palestinian Islamists that has no end in sight”—ignore what is specific about more than four decades of Israeli domination in the Occupied Territories. Especially masked in these debates are the unique and various forms of violence used to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the eruption of the second Palestinian intifada in September 2000. In the name of “security,” Israel has implemented something like a permanent state of emergency. Brute force coexists with, to a sometimes-calamitous degree, a systematic practice of discrimination, surveillance, and disappearance. Behind the barriers—and they are everywhere—live the confined, sealed off from the zone of inclusion, the Israeli state.
More here.
Posted by S. Abbas Raza at 01:02 PM | Permalink
Comments
Truth is the first casualty of war, and the Arabs and Israelis have been at war, either hot or cold, since before 1948. To pretend as if the euphemisms and word games and dishonesty exist only on the Israeli side is itself the greatest dishonesty of all.
Posted by: Max | Nov 22, 2012 3:14:42 PM
I don't think the inmates are the problem. The problem is the prison.
Posted by: John redican | Nov 22, 2012 4:54:37 PM
redican, are you referring to the Gazans in the prison of Israel and Egyptian borders, or Israelis in the prison of the borders of all the hostile nations that surround it?
Posted by: Max | Nov 22, 2012 5:19:07 PM
Max,
After our exchanges in the article "an open letter to the president" your back in the mode of getting in a tizzy, yet again, over word games of your own and fabricated issues of honesty, double standards, and hypocrisy from the messenger to discredit rational ideas honestly presented. I looked at other posts of yours, always the same.
Really? People are dying, living under severe oppression with lethal collective punishment delivered, yet again, and the "the greatest dishonesty of all" is a straw-man argument about words?
In a strange juxtaposition of 3QD stories, the one about "killer robots" (USA and Israel are world leaders in this), just two articles above the "open letter to the president" a sidebar for a short video on the use of white phosphorus mentions that it has been used three times - Afghanistan, Iraq, and GAZA.
Just below this is another video on a terrible weapon, this time cluster bombs. Although the video discusses only Syria using these against its civilians, I recall Israel used these against the Lebanese in 2006. Also from Humans Rights Watch web site: “Israel fired huge numbers of cluster bombs into Lebanon, leaving bomblets that have killed and maimed almost 200 people since the war ended,” said Steve Goose, director of the Arms division at Human Rights Watch.
While some of us are reliably more concerned with word games, illogical ploys, and ridiculous details and definitions to maintain the status quo of lands outside Israel's borders, thankfully others are more concerned about death and suffering on the ground in an ongoing and incredibly one sided conflict.
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 23, 2012 1:01:31 AM
From my childhood days in the "socialist" Romania, where articles like this were published in "Scanteia", the communist ruling party newspaper ( a kind of local replica of "Pravda") I never saw so many lies,wrong casualty, deformation of reality and of history together.
In those time where is much easier to check facts , to ask people, to read expert analyses...it's amazing how the old propagandist system is still alive and even stronger as the lying people are deceiving themselves.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 23, 2012 6:03:39 AM
The only near-viable solution I see is a 3-state solution: 1 Egypt with a Palestinian province in Gaza and northern Sinai Israel retaining its main settlement blocks on the WB and the remaining 80% of the WB as a Palestinian province of Jordan. Gaza is not remotely viable as a state by itself and is heavily overcrowded. Partial ressetlement in Northern Sinai could crate a new economy with solar powered water desalination and energy production. Sure its an inconceivable pipe dream but there must be some major goal to replace decades of fruitless, negative Jew killing ambitions. Its all very well to complain and plan revenge, but it isnt getting them anywhere.
Posted by: aguy109 | Nov 23, 2012 8:36:13 AM
aguy109,
Basically, you don't want Palestinians to be recognized as a distinct people! Why should Egypt and Jordan absorb Gaza and the West Bank just to make Israel's life easier? The Palestinians deserve their own state in whatever is left of their land after the vast majority of it was STOLEN from them by WHITE EUROPEAN JEWS!
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 23, 2012 8:40:55 AM
Yakinsea, I am glad you take enough notice of me to track down my comments and look at them -- I only wish you would also read them, you would also think about them. For if you did, you would learn that I never denied or questioned the death and suffering on the ground, or the skewed nature of the casualties. What you would also learn is why I think what you call "ridiculous details" and "illogical ploys" do matter in any discussion of how to make progress and peace b/w the various sides. And if you disagreed w/ my view, you could tell me why, and we might profit from understanding each others perspective. Instead, you censure any mention of anything other than the suffering on the ground, you dismiss anything other than pitiful narratives of victimization as "extraneous" matters that "dilute" the discussion. Well, I am sorry. I really don't see much value in anything OTHER than understanding the (il)logic and argumentative strategies of the various sides. If the IDF tomorrow drops a bomb on what it believes is a Hamas hideout and it turns out instead to be a school, and the bomb kills 50 children, it will be a great tragedy, a terrible wrong, that will break my heart as any loss of innocent life in war would; or if, instead, a Qassam rocket fired by Hamas tomorrow w/ the deliberate intention of killing civilians in fact does so by hitting and knocking the roof off a school, killing 50 children, it too will be a great tragedy, a great wrong. Such events, however, while we can narrate them and lament them ad nauseum here on 3QD (although I suspect only articles about the Gazan deaths would be posted here, but that's another matter), would not alter the debate between the two sides, would not alter the positions, and would not move us any closer to understanding each other or understanding what can bring such horrific violence to an end.
Here, again, as I wrote b/f, is what I think is the double standard applied to Israel, and why it matters (you can read it and think about it, tell me why you disagree, or dismiss me for speaking of anything other than suffering, it is your decision):
"I think the issue of double-standards on this issue IS absolutely critical while you think it is extraneous and dilutes the discussion. I think the primary obstacle to Palestinians and Israelis moving forward together for peace and solutions is precisely the double standard applied to Israel. People on your side of the debate cling to notions of the "original sin" of Israel's creation, of concepts like "rightful occupants" and so forth (which I am still waiting for a definition on). Such a mode of discussion, such a framing of diplomacy, that you and all other Palestinian supporters push b/w the two sides will never get us anywhere. The fact is that multiple wars have been fought, and Israel has emerged the victor. Might does not make right, but it does make borders and its time for the Palestinians to recognize this reality and move forward and stop calling each subsequent generation refugees. This is the way the world works. This is the way history works. It is not just. The world, and history, is if anything unfair.
If it were up to me, there would've been some sophisticated and ethically sensitive process in 1948 of omnisciently calculating the number of jews and Arabs in the region, and their respective historical/cultural/religious/legal/moral/justice claims to the land, and balancing the various equities, and then distributing the lands according to this abstract-rational calculus. But this is absurd. Tragically, that is not how human affairs play out in history, yet when your side frames the discussion in terms of "original sin" and "theft" and whatever else, and holds Israel and its history up to a standard no other nation is held up to, you are appealing to a fantasy politics that has no basis in reality and only serves to obstruct real progress and peace."
Posted by: Max | Nov 23, 2012 9:17:42 AM
Everyone – but Max and aguy109 in particular –, ought to watch the documentary, linked below.
Colin Dayan of the Boston Review was much too soft-spoken in her essay on what cannot be said about Gaza.
There is an entire history dating from well before WWII which remains out of sight and out of Western minds: the goals and violent means the Zionist movement was prepared to implement in order to eliminate the indigenous population from Palestine – and it should be noted that Jews who rejected the Zionist project were persecuted just as readily as were Christians and Muslims.
Written, directed and produced by Ronen Berelovich, himself Jewish, who was raised in Israel and who served in the Israeli army, set out to make an enlightening documentary on the history of Zionists in Palestine.
This is the context in which the violence perpetrated against the Palestinian people, for over six decades, needs to be understood and discussed.
The Zionist Story [1:15:02]
.
Posted by: Dana | Nov 23, 2012 10:21:11 AM
Max my friend,
I believe that you are wrong supposing that the faraway "militants" that are writing such article of propaganda and lies or the others that are commenting here want an end to the conflict, a peace between Israel and the Palestinians based on compromises and realism.
The "militants" are not motivated rational but visceral by their hate ; they don't want peace but Justice, the same absolute justice of Michael Kohlhaas, the hero of von Kleist,that is sacrificing his family, his friends,his life and his country in a futile quest.
Here, Max, it's also about the fanatic quest for absolute justice and the judgement is decided. No arguments, no proof will change the antisemitic verdict: the Jew is guilty. {Sorry, only half of the world Jewry is guilty,the 6 millions Jews living in Israel, and maybe also the 20% of those living abroad, that are their relatives and friends...}
This article is a good example where date by date and event by event may be proved wrong. But, Max, you can't convince people that have creeds that are even stronger than those religious; they KNOW.
I asked once a very nice person on this forum if something on Wiki-leaks that were just published will change his strong creeds about politics, socialism,USA, Obama, Bush and so on; he told me sincerely : NO. No proofs change strong visceral opinions.
Israel is found guilty:
Said the
mouse to the
cur, "Such
a trial,
dear Sir,
With
no jury
or judge,
would be
wasting
our
breath."
"I'll be
judge, I'll
be jury,"
Said
cunning
old Fury:
"I'll
try the
whole
cause,
and
condemn
you
to
death."
Posted by: mirel | Nov 23, 2012 11:19:15 AM
Mirel, unfortunately you may be right about the ossified dogmatism of many of the harsh critics of israel, but I still believe an effort must be made to make the case for reason, for moderation, for logic, for realistic expectations.
I suppose though that I am driven more by frustration than hope. Frustration at the universal response one hears to any point a defender of israel can make no matter how fair or rational: but the Palestinians suffer! but Israel has committed wrongs! Factors, of course, that no one disputes, but are brought up nevertheless as the only rebuttal necessary. I don't know how much blood has to needlessly be spilt by Palestinians, by Israelis, before people come to their senses, snap back into reality.
Posted by: Max | Nov 23, 2012 12:40:51 PM
Just a friendly reminder to all here: How Not to Leave Comments at 3QD
:-)
(Oh, and this is not an invitation to a discussion of our comments policy. Just a reminder of what it is.)
Posted by: S. Abbas Raza | Nov 23, 2012 12:42:24 PM
I met my first Palestinian in a demonstration back in the 70's. I asked him if it wouldn't be better if his people concentrated on improved housing for those in refugee camps and getting assimilated into Arab countries. He replied no,Palestinians must continue to suffer so that they don't forget etc..
They and their leaders made their choice. Millions of other refugees around the world over the past 60-80 years have got on with their lives and looked forward. The Palestinians only look back to the wrong they believe was done to them and have preserved their impoverished precarious status so as to keep the spirit of revenge alive. Most if not all of those who take their side are motivated by hatred of the Jews.
Posted by: aguy109 | Nov 23, 2012 1:45:06 PM
aguy : "He replied no, ...Palestinians must continue to suffer so that they don't forget etc.."
"Your" first Palestinian must have read Psalm 137 the well-known lament of the Babylonian Jews who wept "by the rivers of Babylon" and declared, "If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither."
Next Year in Jerusalem:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Passover/The_Seder/Conducting_a_Seder/After_the_Meal/Next_Year_in_Jerusalem.shtml
Posted by: Raza Husain | Nov 23, 2012 2:33:12 PM
Max... you said :" I don't know how much blood has to needlessly be spilt by Palestinians, by Israelis, before people come to their senses, snap back into reality."
....after a couple of years that I was on the Jordan border, I returned to Gaza in my reserve duty of 40 days to guard Netzarim;it was about one year(1995-6) after the army retired from Gaza and the leadership was given to Fatah. The settlements were still there and our soldiers were guarding them and also the roads to the main gate with Israel when the settlers were going to work or their children to school. The duty on the roads we were doing together with Fatah; one car of us, one of them. One car with two of them, two of us. For fear of suicide bombers, no Palestinian civil car was allowed to rule when our convoy was passing; they were descending from the main road. Each time we had troubles; cars that were refusing to get out,civilians that were brandishing guns. The situation was explosive; the presence Fatah soldiers helped alittle, but also them were full of hate, swearing in Arabic. We the Jews didn't understand too well, but the Druzes and Arab soldiers from the Mishmar HaGvul, a crack hybrid unit between army and police, were insulted and thesoldiers and Fatah were cocking guns and pointing to each other,ready to fire. I was amazed that the fact that the IDF retired didn't appease the Palestinians, but gave them more fuel to an open hate; I was amazed that the Palestinians had heavy automatic weapons, Fatah AND the civilians when it was agreed only on small side arms and carbines for police only. I was amazed mostly by the fact that all that I dreamed, fought for, voted and demonstrated as a Meretz Peace Now voter (THE RETREAT FROM GAZA)serve to nothing; only inciting the hate.
The retreat of IDF,what for me was an act toward peace and understanding was for Palestinians a sign of weakness and a starting signal to the war.
After 40 days I met my friends from my regiment-we were a medical unit that we were dispersed all over other places and units- and they asked me how is Gaza without IDF? are they friendly now? We have peace now?
I told them that this earth needs more blood. to have peace; to give land is not enough.
In 2005 I saw the evacuation of Netzarim and of all Gaza of any Jew; I was no longer a soldier and I was hoping that now, without our presence, a new era of peace or at least of no conflict.
And today I lost any hope that I will see this peace;I lost the hope that giving land we'll receive peace,I lost the trust in the good will of the Palestinians, I see only their bestial hate, fanaticism and of course the "militants" that are pushing the Palestinians to have their "justice" ,their holly war and misery for ever. Very sad. And without hope.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 23, 2012 2:45:42 PM
For years I have been curious how a population could support a government that has turned strongly down a less than ethical path, fascinated even.
I was lucky to attend a powerful, too weak of a word for this, presentation by a German Jewish doctor, George Wittenstein, who was a member of the White Rose Society. Happily many hundreds from my small college town came, packing the auditorium. This old man started out by opening with a question only for young people - what could they do personally if their government were to turn so very wrongly with the its mechanisms turned upon dissenters. The point was nothing, it was too late. He stated that he didn't experience much bigotry prior to this, being Jewish in prewar Germany. Interestingly my great grandparent immigrated from Germany after being rejected by family for marrying a non-Jew, but I digress.
I have treated people, not always successfully, who have been shot. I have seen severely injured or sick people receive care by health care professionals who obvously could care less about the person needing help.
This disconnect for one's fellow man, whether individually or collectively, I have great trouble with.
Here in the US, pro Israel sentiment is dominant over Arab sentiment as is the press. Both presidential candidates obviously were trying to outdo each-other in being Israel's friend. In the 1982 Israel/Syria conflict I read a long piece from the AP in which the word enemy was used five times, in the context of a quote from an Israeli. At no time did this article give the other side's point of view, much less use "enemy" to refer to Israel.
A basic question is related Dr Wittenstein's: How does one support one's country when it is plainly causing undue death and destruction to civilians? I argue that it is done by recognizing the misdeeds, then oppose these, even if it just entails conversations and votes, not to naively support one's country, right or wrong.
From the Dr Wittenstein's White Rose Society - third pamphlet: "Every individual human being has a claim to a useful and just state, a state which secures the freedom of the individual as well as the good of the whole. For, according to God's will, man is intended to pursue his natural goal, his earthly happiness, in self-reliance and self-chosen activity, freely and independently within the community of life and work of the nation." This is true for the people in the occupied lands, as well
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 23, 2012 3:03:00 PM
Yakinsea, you confuse-as many others- between the errors, accidents and even crimes of a democratic government with the empire of evil, obscurantism and crime; you equal them or-in a paradox so loved by certain intellectuals- accuse the liberal side of the crimes of the other.
In Gaza, between Israel that was attacking the rocket teams and Hamas that was targeting innocents, children going to school, women, elders, people going to work- you are taking the part of Hamas, justifying them in their crimes of war.
And if there is no peace and compromise it is also due to those justifications.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 23, 2012 4:57:34 PM
I've been placed into a box in which I don't belong. I have no respect, abhor even, those that target civilians. I cannot say this strongly enough. I understand a decade's long struggle with against oppression may lead to misplaced violent resistance, but in no way do I support this.
What I don't understand is how forcible taking another's land and wrecking their economy can be rationalized. There must be an unspoken claim to this land. What is this claim, exactly?
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 23, 2012 6:43:48 PM
What do you mean by "wrecking" their economy? I suspect you are trying to refer to the restrictions Israel places over trade/travel around its land/sea border w/ Gaza. The reasons for this are simple, and you can call them rationalizations if that makes you feel better: Gaza is ruled by a gov't that refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, refuses to acknowledge the right of ANY Jew to exist on ANY land in Palestine, and whose long term goal is the destruction of the state of Israel. This is not right wing scare tactics. This is fact. Indeed, Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by many large and powerful enemies on all sides, foes it has fought multiple wars w/ over a very short span of time. Are these not significant facts? Whatever you may think about Israel, the history of 20th century Palestine, or whatever else, you cannot dispute the reasonableness of the Israeli populace feeling a tad bit insecure, a tad bit vulnerable. True, Israel has built up a powerful defense force, as it must given the circumstances, and has a powerful ally in the USA, but that does not alter the precariousness of its geographic and geopolitical environment. And so, if they are able to -- and thank goodness they are -- they impose more restrictions and inspections on what is imported to Gaza. This is not much different in reasoning to the embargo the US has had on Cuban trade since the cold war, and Cuba was not even firing rockets onto American soil as rockets are fired onto Israel. The gov't of Israel is acting like any responsible democratic gov't would act to ensure as best they can the safety of its populace. Now, in a situation such as this, such restrictions are not perfect, and much legitimate trade -- in food, medicine, etc. -- will also be affected unfortunately, and of course those dogmatists that care for nothing more other than to demonize Israel any chance they get will turn this into conspiracies of Israel deliberately starving and imprisoning these folks. Any sensible person, however, looking at the situation as whole, cannot see these secondary effects as anything other than unfortunate consequences of chronic hostilities b/w the two sides, where distrust and animosity prevail. And from Israel's perspective, and from the perspective of any democratic nation if they were in Israel's position, its actions are perfectly justified under the circumstances.
Posted by: Max | Nov 23, 2012 10:53:16 PM
I'm referring to the West Bank and East Jerusalem, too.
Thought experiment: Let's line of up all the weapons each side has including jet fighters, bombers, missiles, helicopters, drones, and naval vessels. Oh, let's not forget nuclear weapons; how many does Israel have?. Throw in countries that actively support each side with actual significant weapon shipments and political cover in th UN.
One must be delusional to not see the complete and utter dominance one side enjoys. And leaders or relatives of leaders on the dominant side are now openly discussing such ideas as flattening Gaza, which could be done without breaking a sweat, even without nukes.
Wrecking an economy:
(Reuters) - "Israel calculated the number of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition under its blockade of the Gaza Strip, according to a study which the Supreme Court forced the government to release.
"It was part of a research paper that came up in two discussions and that we never made use of," Defense Ministry official Guy Inbar said on Wednesday after the document was published by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group that petitioned to receive it."
And from the same Reuters article: "Wikileaks has published diplomatic cables that showed Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/17/us-palestinians-israel-gaza-idUSBRE89G0NM20121017
Numerous Palestinian orchards have been chained, water denied while a neighboring settlement enjoys no water restriction, Palestinian land owners harassed even occasionally shot by settlers with no arrests, numerous checkpoints that deter transportation for Palestinians but not Israelis, etc. The estimated unemployment rate for Gaza (cia.gov) was 40%.
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 23, 2012 11:51:39 PM
The human rights group mentioned above, Gisha, is a great example of a group supporting their country. It takes guts to stand up for universal human rights when it's one's own country's actions that is a big part of the problem. My country, USA, is a big part of the problem and many here have stood up in support of our country by opposing its unethical actions, which are even worse than Israel's. Maybe Israel could become our 51st state; we have so much in common.
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 24, 2012 12:03:25 AM
Gaza under Hamas is the mortal enemy of Israel, as it was Germany for England in WWII.
There are two ways to fight against Hamas: economical and/or military.
Economical is difficult without creating a humanitarian crisis and military is difficult without killing innocents as the terrorist are using human shields.
You quoted from "Gisha" that is publishing research papers from a think-tank . BTW "Gisha" is an organization, as many others, and not a group that is "supporting his country" but the Palestinians from Gaza; "Gisha" is operating with European money (mostly) and Soros money.
Read what "Gisha" is writing about the restriction for Gaza BEFORE the recent war:
http://www.gisha.org/item.asp?lang_id=en&p_id=1741
In light of reports that lifting the closure of Gaza is part of negotiations for a ceasefire, Gisha clarifies what the closure of Gaza (yes, "closure" and not "blockade") consists of today.
Since June 2010, changes in Israeli and Egyptian policies have made the Gaza Strip more open to the outside world, but the restrictions that sever it from the West Bank and Israel remain almost unchanged. These primarily include the ban on marketing goods from Gaza to Israel and the West Bank and restrictions on travel of people between Gaza and the West Bank. Both are explained as part of what Israel calls the "separation policy".
Transfer of goods into the Gaza Strip – The only crossing open for the transfer of goods into and out of the Gaza Strip, except for the tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border, is the Kerem Shalom crossing that connects Gaza with Israel. Israel allows the transfer of all kinds of goods except for materials it defines as dual use and basic construction materials.
Transfer of goods out of the Gaza Strip – Since June 2007, Israel has prevented Palestinians in Gaza from marketing their goods in Israel and the West Bank, where most of the demand is. The export of agricultural produce abroad is allowed in negligible quantities, mainly as part of a project subsidized by the Dutch government. Formally, the export of furniture and textile from Gaza abroad is allowed, but demand for these goods outside of Israel and the West Bank is minimal. Since the beginning of 2012, an average of 18 truckloads of goods were permitted to leave the Gaza Strip each month, which is just 2% of the level prior to June 2007.
Access to land, sea and air space of the Gaza Strip – Israel prevents all access to and from the Gaza Strip by sea and air. Gaza fishermen are allowed to fish up to three nautical miles from the coast. Israel prevents access to a 300-1500 meter "buffer zone" along the border fence.
Travel of people between Gaza and the West Bank – Movement of people into and out of the Gaza Strip takes place through the Erez crossing with Israel and the Rafah crossing with Egypt. Israel allows passage through Erez only in "exceptional humanitarian cases, with an emphasis on urgent medical cases". In practice, Israel has since the beginning of the year allowed about 4,000 entrances of Palestinians a month through Erez to Israel and the West Bank, mostly of senior merchants and patients and their companions, compared to more than half a million entrances in September 2000. Israel does not allow Palestinians from Gaza to enter the West Bank via Jordan, even though in doing so, they don't seek to travel through Israeli territory.
Travel of people between Gaza and other countries – Travel occurs mainly through Egypt, in light of Israel's ban on travel abroad via air, sea, and Israeli ports. The Rafah crossing is open to traffic six days per week. In the last four months, an average of 40,000 people passed through it each month in both directions – a volume of traffic similar to the level during implementation of the Agreement on Movement and Access from November 2005 to June 2006. Because it controls the Palestinian population registry, Israeli exercises indirect control over issuing Palestinian passports, which are necessary for exit through Rafah Crossing.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 24, 2012 2:49:19 AM
Yakinsea, Mirel has covered ^^^ the major points you raised, so I will only add a couple little things.
You say "One must be delusional to not see the complete and utter dominance one side enjoys." Yes, one must be delusional not to. That's why I explicitly refer to Israel's military might and strong ally in the USA in making the point I made above, the one you are supposedly responding to. If you are not going to read what I take the time to write, or are just going to skim them in order to more quickly jump into the routine statements you have preplanned, then there is no point to these discussions, there really is no hope from learning from each other, as Mirel lamented earlier in this thread. And, more substantively, what does this asymmetrical military strength prove exactly? What is your argument regarding this? If recent military history teaches us anything it's that military strength and even complete military dominance over a region is NOT nearly sufficient to achieve security.
Also, you throw out the unemployment rate in Gaza, which was 37.8% in 2010, but probably more now with the spike in violence. No one disputes that Gaza is economically dysfunctional. Heck, no one disputes that Spain is economically dysfunctional. Unemployment in Spain was just last month measured at 26%! In Macedonia 32%! I think the unemployment rate was lower in Gaza when the IDF occupied it. At least then it had some stability, w/o terrorist fanatics constantly barraging Israel w/ intentionally provocatory rockets.
And can you, or anybody, please explain to me this: what is the point of Hamas' shooting rockets into Israel? What aim are they trying to achieve? They must know it will provoke Israel into an eventual military response, so what is the cost-benefit analysis they are working on the basis of? What is the tactical and strategic theory behind perpetual rocket fire into your neighbours civilian population?
Posted by: Max | Nov 24, 2012 11:01:04 AM
Why does Hamas shoot rockets into Israel? Resistance against Occupation of theft of Palestinian land. It's really that simple.
Not a good strategy politically, but the oppressed will always resist their oppressor. It's human nature.
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 24, 2012 11:22:04 AM
Kabir, I know Hamas claims its rocket fire is "resistance" or whatever else the term of the day is. What am I asking, specifically, is what it thinks it will ACHIEVE by such scattershot violence. And so I ask once again:
" What aim are they trying to achieve? They must know it will provoke Israel into an eventual military response, so what is the cost-benefit analysis they are working on the basis of? What is the tactical and strategic theory behind perpetual rocket fire into your neighbours civilian population?"
Posted by: Max | Nov 24, 2012 11:40:08 AM
What will the Palestinians achieve by firing rockets into Israel? Isn't it obvious and plain? They will have endless war to satisfy their enduring blood lust, because they will never accept the presence of a Jewish state in their midst.
Posted by: Angling Saxon | Nov 24, 2012 12:01:57 PM
Wait, what? The Palestinians have "enduring blood lust" and "will never accept a Jewish state in their midst"? Wow! Someone lives in an alternate reality which is truly bizarre! It is the Jews who will never let their be a viable Palestinian state on what little land hasn't (yet) been stolen! It is the Jews that continue to build settlements on Arab lands. It is the Jews that threaten to bring down the Palestinian Authority if Abbas's bid at the General Assembly passes. So no the problem is not with the Palestinians, the natives of "Israel". It is with the Zionist Occupiers, supported by the US. That is the truth, unpalatable as it may be to some.
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 24, 2012 12:09:03 PM
"What will the Palestinians achieve by firing rockets into Israel?"
A Palestinian state depends on the trust that will have the Israeli electorate in the good will and peace keeping of the Palestinians; as you maybe know, Israel is not able to take back the (conquered) land given to Palestinians for peace. Israel didn't took Gaza back neither in " Cast Lead" operation and neither now.
Land given for peace can't be taken back if there is no peace and Peace is a volatile payment for concrete Land. What was achieved is the death of the Peace process, more now than ever; the rockets killed the Left(for-Peace Now) parties and all hope for a Palestinian state in the next years...
Posted by: mirel | Nov 24, 2012 12:36:42 PM
Max, the analyze of this thread confirms that no rational arguments or proofs may change deep feelings...as neither this report, considered true by booth parts, may change hard accusations as "prison", "collective punishment"... Very sad.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 24, 2012 12:38:02 PM
Unfortunately, Mirel, that seems to be the case here. After repeated efforts to get a discussion on basic questions, to get answers to simple, straightforward questions, all I hear in response are empty generalizations, platitudes, evasions, and angry sloganeering. Sigh.
Posted by: Max | Nov 24, 2012 1:07:48 PM
Max: "get a discussion on basic questions, to get answers to simple, straightforward questions" […]
Well, there are precisely some very straightforward questions you should be addressing. For example: What did indigenous Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians have to do with European persecution of Jews, assimilated Jews, in particular; Roma and the handicapped?
How do you respond to the stated, violent plans of Chaim Weizman, Moshe Dyan, Izak Shamir, and so many others, prior to, during, and after the British occupation?
One might have thought that discriminated European immigrants to Palestine would have shown immense gratitude to the indigenous population. Instead, it stole homes and properties, expelled hundreds of thousands and the theft and destruction continues to this day. 400 olive trees destroyed on private property near Hebron, just last week, not to mention the slaughter and destruction in Gaza.
This so-called 'conflict' in Palestine has never been about religion, Jew vs Muslim; it's been about geopolitical strategy, and Judaism was very neatly and cleverly hijacked into the Zionist cause.
These are some of the issues you should be considering and discussing.
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Posted by: Dana | Nov 24, 2012 2:13:18 PM
Dana, I'm sure that you'll receive a learned and better answer from Max, but your intervention here is another divagation example of what he calls "evasions and angry sloganeering".
The article and the comments were about Gaza and a falsified history of the conflict presented in a"poetical" and demagogic style by the author of this article, including the remarks the closure of Gaza by Israel.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 24, 2012 4:13:53 PM
"After repeated efforts to get a discussion on basic questions, to get answers to simple, straightforward questions, all I hear in response are empty generalizations, platitudes, evasions, and angry sloganeering."
I guess if one holds steady in the defense of the defenseless, it is viewed as intractable reliance to dogma. So be it. My posts have been decidedly aimed at the irrefutable fact that a people are losing their land and are being denied their liberties, this included points that I referenced to sources. I see little here from those opposing these points outside of charges of hypocrisy, deflections pointing to other conflicts, or other such contortions to avoid acknowledging the basic rights of the powerless in these
regions. The heart of my arguments have been completely ignored as have my questions, such as asking for Israeli claims to support the taking of land outside Israel's border - no answer because their can be no rational answer to this theft.
I have and continue to condemn the rocket fire into Israel. Not an inch of ground was given by the Israeli supporting hardliners in these discussions with similar condemnations of any misdeeds committed by Israel.
Condemn this land theft, and then maybe we could begin get somewhere.
Posted by: yakinsea | Nov 25, 2012 7:40:47 PM
Okay, so begin: what land theft, exactly, are you referring to? What does, as you used the phrase earlier, "rightful occupants" mean?
Posted by: Max | Nov 26, 2012 8:16:53 AM
Land may be claimed by many, conquered by only one and the land belongs to whom may keep it.
The Palestinians attacked Israel and lost the war/s against Israel.
As Germany after WWII, they lost also land and their private properties; the Palestinians choose to continue the fight by using terror over a powerful enemy, Israel.
Terror over the innocents are taking the Palestinians to a new tragedy and a miserable life; any act of terror will be answered by retaliation and retaliation,to be a deterrence, will be always harsh.
This is our war.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 27, 2012 2:58:28 AM
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