November 15, 2012
Another Israel-Gaza War?
Editorial from the New York Times:
Israel has a right to defend itself, but it’s hard to see how Wednesday’s operation could be the most effective way of advancing its long-term interests. It has provoked new waves of condemnation against Israel in Arab countries, including Egypt, whose cooperation is needed to enforce the 1979 peace treaty and support stability in Sinai.
The action also threatens to divert attention from what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly described as Israel’s biggest security threat: Iran’s nuclear program.
Engaging in a full-scale ground war is especially risky. Israel’s last major military campaign in Gaza was a three-week blitz in 2008-09 that killed as many as 1,400 Palestinians, and it was widely condemned internationally. It did not solve the problem. Hamas remains in control in Gaza and has amassed even more missiles.
Some Israeli commentators have suggested that Mr. Netanyahu’s decision to order the operation is connected to elections in January.
More here. [Photo from the Washington Post.]
Posted by S. Abbas Raza at 11:22 AM | Permalink
Comments
Typical "israel has a right to defend itself, but..." american media garbage. There is no but. No american media entity has the right criticize israel's self-defense strategy while America is engaged in the most widespread, outrageous, indiscriminate violence in the middle east. America and Europe's colossal double-standard towards Israel is absolutely shameful.
Posted by: Max | Nov 15, 2012 12:52:04 PM
My son has just begun a new job in Tel Aviv and the place closed down and sent home its workers. Son saw the incoming rockets from the bus. Those are now distance rockets that got to Hamas via Iran.
How would you respond if you worked with rockets coming in at you?
Egypt? the Islamists, defying the secular folks, are identifying with the Brotherhood and thus also with Hamas; so too Turkey, and so what we have is in fact that which had been more recently denied;
A clash of civilizations.
Where does Egypt get its money from ? tourism and Suez canal. It is in danger of losing that money and also grants of aid from the US.
Posted by: postroad | Nov 15, 2012 2:24:58 PM
Fifty years of brutal occupation and a civilian starving embargo does not pass as self defense.
Posted by: Erich | Nov 15, 2012 7:56:53 PM
I agree with Erich. Analyzing this latest outbreak of violence without examining the core issue of the Occupation is pointless.
I don't support rocket fire from Gaza into Israel (though theoretically one could argue that those who are occupied and oppressed have the right to resist in any way that they can). However, this rocket fire does not and cannot JUSTIFY the disproportionate response from the Zionists!
But as long as the US continues to cover for their favorite country, no matter the outrage in the rest of the world, nothing will change. The only good thing is that Morsi's Egypt is different from Mubarak's Egypt and Cairo has recalled their ambassador from the Zionist State. Cairo should tell Israel "you behave with the Palestinians or else goodbye peace treaty". Then the Zio's will wake up.
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 15, 2012 11:58:43 PM
Kabir, as a 'Zio' I apreciate your efforts to take a balanced view of the situation, although you, understandly, feel loyalty to the Islamic 'underdog' in this situation.
May I just point out that millions of Israelis (including my own daughter) in the south of the country (that's 1948 Israel, not including W Bank) have endured trickles and waves of missile attacks from Gaza over the past 12 years. Those attacks just intensified after Israel withdrew all settlers and army from Gaza in 2004.
When any country is attacked accross its borders in this way it fights back. This rubbish article from NYT claims "Israel’s last major military campaign in Gaza was a three-week blitz in 2008-09 that killed as many as 1,400 Palestinians, and it was widely condemned internationally. It did not solve the problem."
1.That campaign smashed Hamas infrastructure and bought a year or so of quiet (solving problems is for maths, not for the real world)
2. At least 2/3 of the "palestinians" killed were combatants
3. The Israeli campaign was widely supported by the US, Europe, Egypt and even the Muhamad Abbas of the PA
In the last 3 days, Israel has launched over 300 airstikes on military targets in Gaza, but only 19 "palestinians" were killed - nearly all of them combatants. The "palestinians" have fired 400 missiles so far and killed 3 Israeli civilians. Many more Israelis would have died if those missiles hadnt been shot down by the IDF.
Posted by: aguy109 | Nov 16, 2012 1:43:51 AM
Aguy109,
Sorry, but in the David and Goliath scenario, your country is Goliath. The Palestinians (Why is that word in quotes, do you, like Mitt Romney, believe that Palestinians don't exist?) have been oppressed for 60 years by the Jews (I don't give a damn that they are Muslim--I care that the Palestinian nation has been dispossessed by European colonizers to whom the land does not belong). Sorry that Hitler treated you badly, Palestine is not and never will be yours. Get over it.
However, now "Israel" is a reality in most of historic Palestine--the least you people can do is take your "settlers" and get the hell out of what is left of Palestine!
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 16, 2012 4:24:19 AM
Firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian populations deserves a measured response, which is what Israel did. No country would tolerate this kind of terrorism, and the NYT is asking Israel to countenance something that the US would never tolerate. Hope that Hamas stops playing with fire and backs down quickly before matters escalate. Stay safe postroad, aguy109 and others living under the threat of these terrorist rockets.
Posted by: Sam | Nov 16, 2012 4:26:23 AM
Oh Sam,
So quick to sympathize with the Jewish aggressor. Shows your anti-Muslim bias!
You do the Hinjew alliance proud!
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 16, 2012 4:44:04 AM
To this hour the majority of the Israeli citizens, Jews, Arabs, Druzes, are under the rocket range and fire. All this fire is targeting civil population, urban agglomerations; the normal life(work, schools,events, weddings, burials, sport, kindergarten) ceased in all the South of Israel. At this hour exactly that I'm writing and the radio open 24/24 hours is transmitting now Red Alarms of falling of rockets in Tel Aviv; over 4 millions of Israelis (1 of 2 Israelis) were today in shelters under bombardments.
The Hamas from Gaza is lancing rockets from the roofs of houses that under them are families with children; from underground caves situated in crowded neighborhoods,they protect themselves with a human shields. Today with the visit of the Egyptian Foreign Ministry; continuing the fire from his near proximity having a win-win situation; or they are protected by his presence or the Minister will be wounded or killed by the Israeli retaliation.
In the Oslo Peace Accords, the Palestinians were under the obligation, as Japan after the WWII, not to have heavy weapons: only small sidearms, pistols and not automatic rifles. Today they have an arsenal of 10000 rockets and uncounted mortars, some bought with American aid money and other offered by Iran.
The "editorial" says:"Israel has a right to defend itself, but it’s hard to see how Wednesday’s operation could be the most effective way of advancing its long-term interests."
Long-term interest of Israel is peace and quiet. What is the long-term of Hamas? Death,destruction of Israel,killing of innocent civilians. Including their own citizens in their blind and fanatic hate.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 16, 2012 7:03:59 AM
"The only good thing is that Morsi's Egypt is different from Mubarak's Egypt"
In regard to Gaza, it's in name only.
http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/11/15/Gaza-escalation-a-calculated-risk.aspx
Posted by: Troy | Nov 16, 2012 7:39:41 AM
So much sympathy for Israeli Jews, not a care for the Palestinians that are oppressed and killed.... wow, what humanity you people are showing!
One side has home-made rockets, the other side is able to do targeted assassinations and air strikes. This is not a fair fight and it is the onus of the more powerful party (Israel) to de-escalate.
If there weren't an Occupation of Palestine, Hamas would be de-legitimized. As it is, one can argue that they are the resistance. Since non-violent resistance obviously doesn't work with Zionists (witness absolute lack of progress of "negotiations") why not try violence? What's too lose?
Maybe when the citizens of Tel Aviv feel that the lack of a Palestinian state is what is causing them to be under threat of rockets, they'll agitate for a government that will actually establish a Palestinian state (not just pretend like that's what they want to do while stealing more and more Palestinian land). At this point, I wouldn't trust a Zionist further than I can see him....
Posted by: Kabir | Nov 16, 2012 8:57:47 AM
Something to keep in mind: Life Expectancy at birth in West Bank/Gaza = 73 (2010 World Bank Data). Which is a good 8 years higher than India/Pakistan.
This isn't meant to be a clinching statistic on its own, but rather something to keep in mind. I see some people on this thread veer off into fantasy land... E.g. @Erich talks of "civilian starving embargo". This may give some people the wrong impression about life in West Bank/Gaza.
Posted by: Sundar | Nov 16, 2012 12:07:40 PM
Kabir, you make it easy to be a HinJew. To paraphrase Obama from a recent debate, please proceed with your irrational rantings.
Posted by: Sam | Nov 16, 2012 12:14:40 PM
While the violent acts by Hamas and other extremist Islamic groups cannot be supported, the Israeli Government has done its share of being involved in acts of atrocities, and history clearly shows that claims about the need to defend its land and people do not stand up.
*****
Tamar Gozansky in The Haaretz, Nov 16, 2012:
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/operation-peace-for-netanyahu.premium-1.478252
"Experience has taught us time and again that at the start of every war, the government declares festively that this time there will be an end to the firing of rockets on Israeli towns and villages. But then every time yet another war comes around that is supposed to solve the problem 'once and for all'. Lies follow deception, which follows the intoxicating illusion of power."
*****
It is not only the occupation. The ever expanding construction of settlements raises questions about Israel's righteous posture.
Stepping back, UN Resolution 242 of 1967 is always worth a second look.
http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2012/11/another-israel-gaza-war.html
Posted by: waqnis | Nov 16, 2012 12:42:59 PM
Included wrong link about UN Resolution 242 in previous post.
See below
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/240/94/IMG/NR024094.pdf?OpenElement
Posted by: waqnis | Nov 16, 2012 12:50:20 PM
Sundar: "Something to keep in mind: Life Expectancy at birth in West Bank/Gaza = 73 (2010 World Bank Data). Which is a good 8 years higher than India/Pakistan."
I am not sure what life expectancy has got to do with all this. Should populations that have life expectancy greater than India / Pakistan's be embargoed and bombed to bring it down? I know this sounds ridiculous but I am using your line of reasoning the only difference being that for you life expectancy is paramount and for me freedom and peace. Make sense?
Posted by: Raza Husain | Nov 16, 2012 3:12:31 PM
Sam, There was a time when India was a greater supporter of Palestinians than many Muslim countries. This was when India was non aligned and before it became a western backoffice and one of its jobs has become to look after Israeli interests. So Kabir has a point. Think about it, will you?
Posted by: Raza Husain | Nov 16, 2012 3:24:52 PM
Kabir, cheer up: in another universe the Hinjews could be loosing!
Posted by: aguy109 | Nov 16, 2012 3:26:51 PM
Kabir, you will not be using language like "Hinjews" anymore here at 3QD. See here: http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2012/11/a-note-to-our-readers-especially-those-leaving-comments-on-posts.html
Posted by: S. Abbas Raza | Nov 16, 2012 3:59:09 PM
The Israeli problem with Hamas is not the occupation or the retreat to the 67 borders; the problem is that Hamas in their ideology, charter (convenant) and actions are demanding the annihilation of the whole state of Israel and of Jews from this world, A charter that ask for genocide and war, that is profoundly anti-Israel and and anti-Semitic in the same time."The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts. The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.
Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.
Article 14 The liberation of Palestine is the personal duty of every Palestinian.
Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim".It states the history of crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem".
Article 20 Calls for action "by the people as a single body" against "a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people".
Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power.
Article 28 Conspiracy indictment against "Israel, Judaism and Jews".
Article 32 Hamas condemns as co-plotters the “imperialistic powers” . References The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (wiki)
For today Israel, the United States, the European Union,, Canada and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Hamas has been explicit in its Holocaust Denial;antisemitic rhetoric is frequent and intense in Hamas leaflets.
Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."[228]
Article 22 states that the French revolution, the Russian revolution, colonialism and both world wars were created by the Zionists or forces supportive of Zionism:
"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."[229]
Article 32 of the Covenant refers to an antisemitic forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
I will not add more; but please, when we'll fight them don't ask why that after a Holocaust we will do ALL to prevent another one and to fight a mortal and evil foe.
Posted by: mirel | Nov 16, 2012 5:29:08 PM
Mirel, Hamas was created by Israel to weaken the PLO. It is the old divide and rule game that imperialists play, which is what they did to Palestine.
Posted by: Raza Husain | Nov 16, 2012 7:25:27 PM
Mirel, This is letter that Albert Einstein sent to the New York Times on December 4,1948, protesting the visit of Menachem Begin and warning of Zionist Facism In Israel:
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
Complete Scanned original...
http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/einstein/nyt_orig.html
Posted by: Raza Husain | Nov 16, 2012 9:02:03 PM
@ Raza Husain (this gentleman is not S. Abbas Raza; this at least I understand now)
All this (Einstein in 48; creation of Hamas in 1987) is old history for Middle East, a place of daily major events. Hamas,that has the roots in the Muslim Brotherhood (Those who are ruling today in Egypt and killed Saadat) was in 1987 a religious organization with a welfare activity.
...and if you like Einstein, a quote:
"This is a great age, the age of liberation of the Jewish soul, and it has been accomplished through the Zionist movement, so that no one in the world will be able to destroy it. "(Ronald W. Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, World Publishing (1971) pg 393)
http://www.zionism-israel.com/Albert_Einstein/Albert_Einstein_zionism.htm
Posted by: mirel | Nov 17, 2012 6:53:07 AM
An item from Down Under:
Sydney Morning Herald – Nov 18, 2012
Rash Israel lights Arab Spring powder keg
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/rash-israel-lights-arab-spring-powder-keg-20121117-29ism.html
*****
And a poem by the late Yehuda Amichai.
"A POEM THAT I WROTE IN A HIGH FEVER"
You who are lengthening your lives
with the best doctors and best medicines
remember those who are shortening their lives
with the war
that you in your long lives are not
preventing.
You who are again screwing
the younger generations
and winking at each other
the winking of your eyelids
is like chill of the swinging shutters
in an empty house.
---Yehuda Amichai (translated from Hebrew by Leon Wieseltier)
Posted by: waqnis | Nov 17, 2012 1:07:08 PM
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