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April 02, 2012

Should we address the controversy?

by Quinn O'Neill

ScreenHunter_02 Apr. 02 16.14At the Reason Rally held recently in Washington, Richard Dawkins made a rather provocative suggestion. He encouraged the crowd to ridicule and mock religious people for their beliefs.

Exactly how far he’d have his followers go with their ridicule isn’t clear. Jerry Coyne of the blog “Why Evolution is True” presumably considers Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion to exemplify the approach that Dawkins is advocating. He offers the converts' corner of Dawkins’ website as evidence of the approach’s effectiveness. It’s a collection of anecdotes from atheist converts who most commonly credit The God Delusion.

The book certainly can be credited for many conversions to atheism, but I think it constitutes an appeal to reason more so than an example of ridicule. In any case, what Dawkins advocated at the Reason Rally goes beyond what he’s done with any of his books. Ridicule can take many different forms, including well-crafted satire and cartoons like South Park, but Dawkins is suggesting that we make fun of people face-to-face. “Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!” he instructs.

Ridicule can be an effective tactic, but it’s risky. J. Michael Waller makes this clear in a White Paper for the Institute of World Politics, in which he endorses ridicule as a tactic in the “war on terrorism”. Distinguishing ridicule from humor, he says:

Laughing at someone – ridicule - is another matter. It is the use of humor at someone else’s expense. It is a zero-sum game destructive to one of the parties involved. Like a gun, it is a dangerous weapon. Even in trained hands, it can misfire. Used carelessly or indiscriminately, ridicule can create enemies were there were none, and deepen hostilities among the very peoples whom the user seeks to win over.

Robert Wright, in a piece in The Atlantic, questions what effect Dawkins’ advocacy of such a hostile approach might have on support for anti-evolution bills like the one recently passed in Tennessee. It’s a good question. It is a well-established marketing tactic to associate what you’d like to sell to people - be it a product or an opinion - with the values of the target group. Being a well-known advocate for evolution, Dawkins’ advocacy of hostile anti-theism may have an undesired effect. For some people, he may be reinforcing an association between evolution and a threat to something that they value. From a marketing perspective, this would be an obvious blunder. It’s like reminding people that Coke promotes tooth decay when you actually want them to buy Coke.

Of course, Dawkins isn’t a marketing strategy, he’s a human being who’s entitled to express his opinions. And I doubt that keeping creationism out of the science curriculum is his primary objective. He seems to be more concerned with eradicating religion.

But supposing that promoting acceptance of evolution and protecting the integrity of the science curriculum are our primary goals, is there not a better approach than making fun of religous people? One that’s less likely to backfire and one that’s better supported by evidence? I think there is.

There is evidence that engaging creationists in debate can change their minds. Coyne, in an earlier post, offered an impressive example in the form of a course that he taught. The course, called “Evolution vs. Creationism” was for nonmajors and was intended to promote critical consideration of the case for each side. He describes the class:

Every Monday I would lecture as myself, giving the evidence for one aspect of evolution, such as radiometric dating or the fossil record. On Wednesday I would lecture as a creationist, trying to overturn all the stuff that crazy evolution guy said on Monday. [I was very well versed in creationist arguments.] This, of course, deeply confused the students. On Friday we would all sit down and talk about the conflicting viewpoints, trying to adjudicate them. [We also had debates, in which I assigned all the creationist students to defend evolution, and the evolution-accepting students to defend creationism.] And although the class began with a nearly equal mixture of evolution-accepters and evolution-deniers among the students, by the end of the class the discussions had convinced more than half of the creationists of the truth of evolution. It was a deeply satisfying result.

It’s worth noting that the success of debate and appeals to reason may not always be readily apparent. It’s pretty rare for people to entirely exchange long-held opinions in a short period of time. Sometimes, a debate or a new fact plants a seed of doubt that grows over time. In this respect, Coyne’s success might have been even greater than it appeared. Small changes matter too.

Whether we’re talking about religion or acceptance of evolution, I think both the influence of The God Delusion and the success of Coyne’s class provide some pretty convincing evidence that facts and arguments, appeals to reason, and debate can change people’s minds. I think we need more of this. Everywhere. Especially in schools.

It’s possible to address the controversy in schools without teaching it, and I think we should. While there is no controversy among scientists, there is among members of the public and among students, and it matters. It is painfully evident that a sizable portion of the population -important decision makers included- don’t care much what scientists think. The controversy in the public realm has an impact on people’s thinking and, more importantly, on the behavior of politicians and curriculum committees.

So here’s an idea, partly inspired by Coyne’s classroom success. It may be ridiculous and completely unfeasible. I’m offering it here in the hope that it might generate some ideas beyond either ridiculing or coddling religious people.

I propose an evolution vs. creationism debate with representation for each side that would be deemed worthy by proponents of each view - perhaps representatives from a national science organization like the NSF or the NCSE, and from a creationist institution, like the Discovery Institute. The debate wouldn’t be public or in person and the time frame would allow for careful formulation and revision of arguments and rebuttals. Respective parties would be free to formulate their response in groups or appoint people they deem up to the task. The number of back-and-forths permitted should allow the entire process to be completed in a reasonable time frame, maybe a few months. The end result would be a formal debate which presents each side’s views and let’s students decide what to think, just as proponents of “teaching the controversy” claim to want.

I envision this debate being part of a booklet that might also contain brief deconstructions of common evolutionary misconceptions and maybe a section on the nature of science. I would have copies in science classrooms and school libraries. Teachers could mention the resource to students and encourage them to read it but still refrain from discussing religion in the classroom. It would be a supplemental curriculum resource not intended to replace coverage of evolution in the curriculum.

In addition to schools (science classrooms and school libraries), perhaps this booklet could be distributed to public libraries and museums and available online for order and/or download. It might be nice to have copies available for handout at various events, like Darwin Day celebrations.

I think this could be helpful for a number of reasons. I personally found a transcript of an evolution vs creationism debate to have a sizable impact on my own thinking about the issue. The debate was between Isaac Asimov and Duane Gish. It was only a few pages in length, but it sealed the deal for me in high school.

Reading the debate not only cemented my acceptance of evolution, it made me realize how weak the arguments for creationism are. This is important. There seems to be more proponents of teaching both creationism and evolution than there are strict creationists (a 2005 Pew Center poll puts the first group at 64%, a 2010 Gallup poll puts the latter at 40%). This means that a fair number of people who accept evolution still think it’s worth teaching creationism. With persistent attempts to undermine evolution education, it’s not enough that people accept evolution, they need to understand why creationism shouldn’t be taught as science.

Additionally, I think it’s generally more important for people to think for themselves than to think like I do. For this reason I think focusing efforts on promoting debate, providing facts and arguments, and appealing to reason is a superior course of action than face-to-face mockery. While the former approach enhances the critical thinking process, the latter punishes the conclusion. It’s possible that mockery may induce some people to examine their views more critically, but we don’t have any idea what percentage of the time this happens.

There’s much better evidence for the effectiveness of debate and appeals to reason than there is for the effectiveness of face-to-face ridicule. There also seems to be greater potential for harm with ridicule. Ridicule is like the homeopathy of available approaches and fundamentalism like a cancer.

Posted by Quinn O'Neill at 12:02 AM | Permalink

Comments

The best argument against face-to-face ridicule ultimately centers on its ineffectiveness? I can think of better reasons.

Posted by: Chris | Apr 2, 2012 2:30:33 PM

Chris, I think the potential for harm is also important. The best argument for or against any intervention ultimately centers on how its harm vs benefit profile compares to that of other options. For the sake of brevity and due to the lack of useful data, I haven't expounded here on all of the potential beneficial and harmful effects of face-to-face ridicule. I do think it's a risky approach with considerable potential for harm, and I think there are better options.

I'm curious as to what your reasons are. Care to share 'em?

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Apr 2, 2012 3:26:38 PM

Though an atheist myself, this is precisely why I have no respect for Dawkins' brand of atheism. It's egotistical, rigid, petulant, bigoted, riddled with blind spots, and in many ways actually detrimental to society.

We're already sharply divided along countless social, economic, political, and cultural lines. The goal should be to build bridges for productive discourse, as you suggest, not to promote the current rage for animosity, close-mindedness, and condescension, all of which is evident in his approach. Some theists are assholes, so atheists should be assholes too? FFS.

Dawkins is living proof that smart people can be pretty goddamn stupid. Pun intended.

Posted by: Akim Reinhardt | Apr 2, 2012 4:25:05 PM

Why would this even be up for serious consideration? I've been agnostic tending toward atheism since I was 12, but I try not to be an uncivilized jerk. Dawkins is wrong to use his public power to suggest that bullying -- of which ridicule is a form -- is the solution, rather than relying on the power of the idea itself. And yes, politically it is simply stupid.

Posted by: Sarah D. | Apr 2, 2012 6:33:15 PM

Makes sense to me. If you are a "new atheist" and are incapable of making valid philosophical arguments, or even of having a modicum of respect for philosophy or philosophers, then ad hominem seems an appropriate choice.

Posted by: DAS | Apr 2, 2012 9:53:51 PM

Would Dawkins care to field-test his proposal in Iran?

Posted by: bedrich | Apr 3, 2012 12:18:14 AM

Ridicule is a terrible idea. The only people who deserve it are public figures who are doing outrageous things (for example, the westboro church people) however, the ridicule in those instances will arise organically.

Additionally, the debate is a bad idea too. Debates are rarely won in the basis of the strength of the underlying argument, but rather on the basis of the skill of the debater.

Posted by: addicted | Apr 3, 2012 1:16:44 AM

Appealing to reason is part of a good approach, but we shouldn't forget the adage that positions not arrived at via reason are unlikely to be abandoned via reason.

Fear of death, of our finiteness, of our relative physical frailty, the need for a sense of belonging, the need for a sense of meaning in the face of the vastness of the universe, and a hunger for certainty, all are deeply emotional matters which drive people to religious belief.

It is precisely because the roots of religion are emotional, not rational, that direct ridicule of someone to their face, which includes the emotion of contempt, is (usually) a bad idea, because more often than not it will provoke an emotional retrenchment on the part of the believer. From a purely pragmatic point of view, it's ineffective.

If one is to use ridicule, one must ask oneself: who is the audience for this ridicule? Is it the person whose attitude and behaviour are contemptible (transvaginal ultrasound legislators, I'm lookin' at YOU), in which case, is it really going to have an impact on them beyond making them dig in their heels? Or is it other people perhaps on the fence whom one hopes to persuade of the ridiculousness and ethical failings of that contemptible person? Or is it only a case of preaching to the atheist choir?

The idea should be to convince as many people who have some rational capacity that's reachable of the ridiculousness of the hardcore believers, rather than trying to change the hardcore. Isolate them, and prevent others from adding to their numbers.

At the same time, a respect for the emotional needs that drive people to religion is called for, and thus we must consider what alternatives we can offer to the facile but ultimately empty palliatives of religion. I think of Neil deGrasse Tyson's enthusiasm about our very real basic molecular connections to the universe: "I want to grab people on the street and say, have you heard this?!", or of Carl Sagan's kindly alien in Contact telling Ellie Arroway that the only thing they've ever found that made the vastness bearable was each other: love is all you need, in other words. People can have just as fulfilling lives (and probably a lot more so) connecting with reality - and with each other - as they think they can only get from imagining gods and afterlives. They need to be shown how reality is more interesting, more satisfying. That's where we can start.

Posted by: Kai Matthews | Apr 3, 2012 1:38:07 AM

In general I tend to agree that ridicule would not work. Although I admire Dawkins, I don't agree with some of his approaches. By trade he's an evolutionary biologist, but the approaches he is encouraging are in the realms of sociology which are outside his professional area. However, it does seem to work to some extent. The popular TV show, "The Simpsons" does it all the time and I would imagine that its more gentle satire has influenced millions of teenagers.

Posted by: Brian Mulligan | Apr 3, 2012 3:10:16 AM

Going by past statements, it really, really annoys him that making fun of Republicans (or Democrats presumably) is more acceptable than making fun of religious views, when politics is about tribalism and social needs and suchlike as well, very much like religion. Dawkins cares more about stretching (and more important, shifting) the domain of acceptable discourse than about changing hearts or winning allies. He's not a naive child ignorant of pretty basic facts about human psychology; his game is to a) energize the base b) make that base significant and loud enough that you have to at least give it lip service in all discussions. I don't see much evidence he isn't a grand success on his terms.

Posted by: prasad | Apr 3, 2012 4:54:34 AM

It's amazing the number of 'smart' people who totally miss the not-so-subtle point that prasad just made so eloquently. Of course Dawkins understands perfectly what he's doing - it's laughable, these assertions of a lack of psychological fluency. He's a ground-breaking evolutionary biologist for godsake. It's ALL about shifting the debate and there's plenty of room for all modalities....

I certainly don't think he's some type of intellectual god, he certainly attracts some strange and vitriolic types to his blog (at an admittedly brief sampling), but when on form Dawkins always cuts to the core of an issue and won't stand for obfuscation which is a breath of fresh air. Can't wait to see him next Monday night taking on the morally repugnant 'Cardinal' George Pell here in Australia in an hour long televised stoush. Should be fireworks!

Posted by: MattInOz | Apr 3, 2012 5:31:23 AM

Well you can make a valid case that allowing creationists to prevent the effective teaching of science is a really bad idea. But, in my view, the best way for sciencians to combat that would be to ally themselves with the huge numbers of believers who embrace modern science. That's the way to win, because it offers to the creationists a way to see science in religiously compatible terms.

I doubt Dawkins would be willing to make such an alliance, so you do have to question his motives.

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 3, 2012 6:15:45 AM

Robert Wright, in a piece in The Atlantic, questions what effect Dawkins’ advocacy of such a hostile approach might have on support for anti-evolution bills like the one recently passed in Tennessee.

Why do we have to see it as hostile, exactly? I suppose we all have friends who we make fun of every once in a while, but in a good-natured, teasing way. Of course mocking can be spiteful; but equally of course there are people who are so full of themselves that they think nothing they say could ever be even a little stupid.

The healthier approach by far, it seems to me, is to assume that we all say at least three stupid things each day, and that we should be glad about anyone who points this out to us in a light-hearted manner. We’ll just have to give up identifying with our ideas—which is a bad idea anyway.

Posted by: Peter Beattie | Apr 3, 2012 6:48:03 AM

"doubt Dawkins would be willing to make such an alliance"

Dawkins is not seeking to make any alliance. As I said above, his valid technique is but one amongst many but it doesn't involve the softly, softly approach. He seeks not to show that people who are committed to a religion can also admire and apply good science. He seeks to demonstrate, unequivocally, how a proper emersion in honest and open science exposes the tenets of religions for the lies that they are. He hopes to collapse the whole system from taking out its foundations not from chipping away at the summit. This works for many people who've lazily never bothered to interrogate the foundations of their particular breed of delusion.

Posted by: MattInOz | Apr 3, 2012 7:01:39 AM

Would Dawkins care to field-test his proposal in Iran?
Think about how that thought arose. It'd do some good.

Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Apr 3, 2012 7:03:55 AM

"CREATION BY EVOLUTION AND THE ARTIFICES OF KNOWLEDGE

E. J. Hoffman

The following exercise consists mostly of excerpts from various references, sort of an underground philosophy contrary to what is generally thought of as “science.” Much is taken from a manuscript in progress, titled Errancy: The Contradictory and Inadmissible in the Logic/Illogic of Science. Oswald Spengler’s comments in The Decline of the West about the foibles of humankind appear prominently. The dilemma is that the true believers in science – here, read evolutionism – don’t know, or can’t know, exactly what they believe in – but know they’d better. Not to mention that belief or faith carries an element of doubt – it’s built-in. The same sort of comment can be made about religion, of course, or call it metaphysics."
www.contrarianisms.com by professor E.J. Hoffman

Posted by: WJAbbe | Apr 3, 2012 7:12:14 AM

What bedrich said. The idea is a non-starter in practical terms. It will only work in societies where the atheists are in the majority. Which makes the whole thing a bit redundant.

This is a behaviorist solution: associate the meme of religious belief with shame, and after a sufficient number of exposures to the shame, an aversion will develop to the belief. From the New Atheist point of view this probably seems like an ingenious solution because it entirely bypasses ratiocination, which (most New Atheists surely believe) is the primary bottleneck in "persuasion" approach.

Even though in practical terms the behaviorist solution is likely to be counterproductive, in principle, it happens to be the solution every society has resorted to in order to inculcate norms and beliefs in its children - and sometimes even to modulate the behavior of adults concerning matters like littering or adultery. We learn most of our moral norms as children, through a brute reward-punishment system that is applied to us by adults - or by other children. Children refrain from lying and stealing and snitching not because they think such behavior is wrong but because such behavior will bring them shame or punishment. We ascribe intellectual and moral content to these norms only much later on, when we gain the capacity to rationalize our behavior in terms of the larger social good. Dawkin's solution is to treat the people he believes to be beyond persuasion as kids once again. It is for their own good - and for the good of society, he might argue.

Posted by: M73 | Apr 3, 2012 8:30:09 AM

"He seeks to demonstrate, unequivocally, how a proper emersion in honest and open science exposes the tenets of religions for the lies that they are."

When is he going to start?

"He hopes to collapse the whole system from taking out its foundations not from chipping away at the summit."

There is no likelihood he will be successful. There is ample evidence that these efforts will have the reverse effect and harden the positions and the longevity of fundamentalist anti-science.

I suppose, if his goal is to increase the divide separating fundamental literalists from the mainstream of modern society, then he should stick with these tactics. Unfortunately, these groups believe in political action, so he is probably their best ally in perpetuating and expanding the influence creationists have in American politics. Having an invisible Satan is nowhere near as sexy as having a tangible, quotable one.

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 3, 2012 9:05:48 AM

Where the "new atheists" (who of course are not new at all -- look at B. Russell and many before him) are concerned, they tend to want to go further than the "accommodationists," the folks who do appreciate rational argument (many of them scientists themselves) but also have religious commitments. They assume that anyone who accepts the value of rationality (i.e., science) will, for that very reason, reject religion entirely, because all religious beliefs (they think) are inconsistent with rationality. That proposition, I think, is debatable, though rational religious people will generally pare their set of religious beliefs down to many fewer than those of the irrational believers. But I am not sure that reason demands that that set needs to have zero members.

Posted by: JonJ | Apr 3, 2012 9:54:39 AM

Something got lost in this comment, somehow. The following should precede the text that was posted:

"Mr. O'Neill,

"Your proposal is a very interesting one. But I think the kind of debate you are suggesting has already taken place, and is taking place, in many locations in e-space and out of it. The booklet you would like to result from it would be a handy reference for people who are looking for such a reference, but such handy summaries of the controversy are also available.

"Yet creationists and creation museums continue to exist. The fundamental problem, I think, is that there are many people who do not understand, or accept, the value of rational inquiry (i.e., science) in the first place. As has often been noted, you can't reason someone out of a basic refusal to practice reason; there's no common argumentative ground between you and them to stand on. Out of a despairing frustration that such non-accepters of reason even exist, the Dawkins faction seems to feel that nothing will break through the walls of this anti-reason fortress but unremitting ridicule. I tend to agree with the objection that, though this may work in some cases, it just hardens the walls in most cases."

Posted by: JonJ | Apr 3, 2012 9:57:22 AM

At some point we have to say it: willful ignorance is stupidity; and stupidity is a characteristic of a person. Hence, to mock views that are ignorant –unalterably ignorant–is indeed to mock the person. And I see nothing wrong with this as a way of opposing ignorance's cancerous spread in the body politic.

Posted by: Robert Bray | Apr 3, 2012 10:32:39 AM

Many people are religious not out of ignorance but out of conformity. They understand that atheists are held in contempt and do not wish to be held in contempt. The need to conform is stronger in most people than the desire for truth. Religion can be seen as just another form of self interest. Appealing to reason will obviously not work here. When I meet a religious person, I simply conclude that they are being intellectually dishonest with themselves.

Posted by: e4 | Apr 3, 2012 10:59:26 AM

"They understand that atheists are held in contempt and do not wish to be held in contempt."

This would be something to work on. All those atheists who would like their social standing as a group to improve, might consider mocking and shaming those radical atheists who seem to want to ramp up the vitriol.

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 3, 2012 11:57:10 AM

I think religious people deserve neither mockery nor respect. They need to be avoided as much as possible. I would also add that I have never heard atheists shouting through megaphones on the street.

Posted by: e4 | Apr 3, 2012 12:45:40 PM

Prasad said it.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Apr 3, 2012 12:52:54 PM

Methinks someone needs to go re-read what Dawkins said a little more attentively, and without as much self-projection.

It's very possible, Dawkins means, and also quite effective, to mock someone's ridiculous choice to flaunt a trendy dark suit on a hot summer day without making the mockery personal -- all that's being mocked is their foolish and self-demeaning fashion statement.

Almost all religion is the same thing. Most of the rest is a quiet, desperate cry for true friendship or pain medication.

Posted by: melior | Apr 5, 2012 1:10:21 AM

Unrelated: I was channel surfing the other night and I happened upon the conclusion of a Charlie Rose interview with E. O. Wilson. Wilson had apparently said something dismissive about Dawkins, and Rose was expressing surprise and dismay. Wilson replied something like *Well he doesn't submit papers to (or publish in) journals, so there is no peer review." ...so he can be disregarded?

What brought that on?

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 5, 2012 11:16:35 AM

Got a link, Carlos? Like to see that..... Thanks. M

Posted by: MattInOz | Apr 5, 2012 9:58:52 PM

For some reason the videos on this page crash my obsolete laptop, but here in the comments:

"Catherine_Daw 04/04/2012 03:57 PM Report
It is sad to see that giants in the field of biology are resorting to personal attacks. Wilson, whom I've greatly admired, claimed that Dawkins did not publish scientific papers. He neglected to mention that his latest paper was probably accepted only because of the fame of two of the authors, and because it would provoke a huge controversy. Have the authors responded to the specific counterarguments in Nature? No, they just reiterated their assertions."

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12273

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 6, 2012 6:50:36 AM

It's at the 16:20 mark in the video. The sense I got on watching it again is that Wilson doesn't consider Dawkins to be one of the group ("real scientists"), but tell me what you think. I had thought they got along fairly well, prior to seeing this.

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 6, 2012 7:00:54 AM

Dawkins' use of "ridicule" is far tamer and less personal than past criticizers of religion. His criticisms of religion often mirror the observations that Bertrand Russell published more than 70 years ago. (Altho' Russell was a far more eloquent writer, im my opinion.)

For true vitriol, you need to go to a Mark Twain or H L Mencken.

"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy."
-- H L Mencken, "Aftermath" (coverage of the Scopes Trial) The Baltimore Evening Sun, (September 14, 1925)

Posted by: Bill | Apr 6, 2012 7:57:35 AM

Another H L Mencken jewel.. I couldn't resist sharing it. ;-)

The difference between the smartest dog and the stupidest man -- say a Tennessee Holy Roller -- is really very small.
-- H L Mencken, Minority Report, 1956

Posted by: Bill | Apr 6, 2012 8:07:00 AM

Dawkins just has a need to save his species from near extinction, and the many other beings we rapacious apes will bring along with us.

Religion is an obvious impediment to survival, although in the past it brought genetic fitness.
Plus we need peace:


Peace and Nations

Posted by: Dave Ranningd | Apr 6, 2012 3:27:44 PM

Thanks a lot Carlos, will have a look when I get home on Mon and let you know (my iPad here, sadly doesn't support flash) - though I agree with you that it's sad if true. They've both shared fantastic insights with the layman over the years....

Posted by: MattInOz | Apr 7, 2012 8:26:44 PM

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