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December 05, 2011

The Bhagavad Gita Revisited - Part 1

By Namit Arora

(Why the Bhagavad Gita is an overrated text with a deplorable morality at its core. This is part one of a two-part critique. Part 1 is the appetizer with the  Gita’s historical and literary context. Part 2 is the main course with the textual critique.)

KarnaDeathIn mid-first millennium BCE, a great spiritual awakening was underway in areas around the middle Ganga. People were moving away from the old Vedic religion—which revolved around rituals, animal sacrifices, and nature gods—to more abstract, inner-directed, and contemplative ideas. They now asked about the nature of the self and consciousness, thought and perception. They asked if virtue and vice were absolute or mere social conventions. Personal spiritual quests, aided by meditation and renunciation of material gain, had slowly gathered pace. From this churn arose new ideas like karma and dharma, non-dualism, and the unity of an individual’s soul (atman) with the universal soul (Brahman)—all pivotal ideas in Hinduism.

Some of these innovations in thought soon made their way into the texts we now know as the Upanishads, setting them qualitatively apart from the earlier Vedas. All of this occurred in the context of great sociopolitical and economic changes, marked by the rise of cities, trade and commerce, social mobility, public debates, new institutions of state, and even some early republics. This was also the world of the Buddha, Mahavira, and Carvaka.

The Great War of Yore

By this time, versions of a Mahabharata story had been circulating for centuries. Perhaps inspired by a war that took place c. 950 BCE around modern Delhi (the date is tentative), the story, through oral transmission, took on a life of its own. In The Hindus: An Alternative History (2009), Wendy Doniger writes that the earliest bards who told the Mahabharata story came from a caste of charioteers, who served as drivers, confidantes, and bodyguards to the Kshatriya warrior-castes. While on military campaigns, they recited stories around campfires. (No wonder God is a charioteer in the epic! Even Karna is raised by a charioteer.) In later ages and in times of peace, many bards took their performance art to lay audiences in villages and folk festivals. The story also came to be recited during royal sacrifices, where the Brahmins slowly took over its delivery and evolution, eventually writing it down in Sanskrit. Its "final form" dates from 300 BCE-300 CE and ranges from 75K to 100K verses, seven to ten times the Iliad and the Odyssey combined. (Read an outline of the story here.)

The Mahabharata, writes Doniger, ‘is so extremely fluid that there is no single Mahabharata; there are hundreds of Mahabharatas, hundreds of different manuscripts and innumerable oral versions (one reason why it is impossible to make an accurate calculation of the number of its verses). The Mahabharata is not contained in a text; the story is there to be picked up and found, salvaged as anonymous treasure from the ocean of story.’ While these versions share the same narrative core—the struggle between two branches of a royal family, the Pandavas and the Kauravas, for the control of the Kuru capital, Hastinapura, culminating in a great civil war—around it ‘are piled high many volumes of lore and doctrine contributed by Indian thinkers and storytellers over centuries’, writes Sheldon Pollock, author of The Language of the Gods in the World of Men. Frustrated by this situation, scholars at the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune, collated 1259 manuscripts from 1919-66 to produce a critical edition of the Mahabharata with 89K verses; it is this version that most scholars reference today.

VyasaThe Mahabharata has been variously read as ‘history, poetry, moral law, and scripture’, though its central problematic, writes Pollock, is about power. ‘The dilemma of power—in the starkest terms, the need to destroy in order to preserve, to kill in order to live—becomes most poignant when those whom one must kill are one’s own kin. That is why the Mahabharata is the most harrowing of all premodern political narratives in the world: the Iliad, like the Ramayana, is about a war far from home, the Odyssey about a post-war journey home, and the Aeneid about a war for a home. The Mahabharata is about a war fought at home’, one in which both sides end up losing (to be precise, one side scores a pyrrhic victory). Having read all of these epics, I think another point of departure for the Mahabharata is that the heroes in the other epics are much less reflective; they live by a received heroic code and are not too motivated as individuals to seek self-knowledge or worry about the right thing to do. Which other epic has a hero as introspective and truth-loving as Yudhisthira, or as prone to ethical doubt as Arjuna, or as magnanimous as Karna?

What the Mahabharata does share with the Homeric epics is that it, too, has been reworked so heavily at different times that it is hard to extract reliable historical or sociological data from it. For instance, in 950 BCE, the estimated time of the war that inspired the epic, Kuru society was clan-based; chieftainship was based on both kinship networks and personal qualities; the extent of the Kuru domain, over whose control the war was fought, was a small region of the Ganga-Yamuna Doab. But the bards later injected kings into the epic who went beyond clan chieftains; these kings ruled over bigger territories and practiced heredity succession. The bards even magnified the war to apparently include all of the peoples they knew of. John Keay, author of India: A History, notes that the epic’s royal palaces too were upgraded to those of later times, with ‘pillared pavilions and marble halls, their interiors opulently furnished’, polished and shiny floors, untold wealth, and so on—descriptions that legitimized ‘the grandiose ambitions of later empire builders.’ That said, one aspect of the epic that likely goes way back is its view of the forest-dwelling clans of hunter-gatherers; the epic’s heroes encounter them in exile as raskhas or demons, some hostile and some who turn into allies—depictions that seem in line with ‘the presumed pattern of Aryan colonization and settlement’.

Clearly, lots of people contributed to the Mahabharata. Accepting Vyasa as its author has more to do with our need to personalize storytelling. Doniger writes that ‘non-Brahmins, people of low caste, were originally in charge of the care and feeding of the two great Sanskrit poems [the other being the Ramayana], which Brahmins took over only sometime later, one of many instances of the contributions of low-caste people to Sanskrit literature.’ The basis of caste was more fluid earlier, ranging from heredity to personal character, occupation, and even choice. Vyasa, himself a character in the story as the son of a ferryman’s daughter, is a half-caste. All this might help explain the polyphony and plurality of views that have survived in the Mahabharata—in its range of moral dilemmas, ideas of duty, flaws of character, conflicts of virtues and values—and why it continues to have such popular appeal in India. As Doniger writes, the Mahabharata remains a contested text, ‘a brilliantly orchestrated hybrid narrative with no single party line on any subject.’

The Celestial Song of God

BrookGitaThe Bhagavad Gita (‘The God’s Song’), widely regarded as the philosophical core of the Mahabharata, was composed much later under the realities of a new age. It was merged into the epic’s later drafts, perhaps as late as first century CE. This means that the philosophy it espouses is often not in accord with the moral ambiguities of the larger epic. Presented as a Q&A style dialog between Lord Krishna and the warrior-prince Arjuna, the Gita channels certain ideas from the Upanishads and the newly ascendant Bhagavata sect (whose devotionalism is not prominent in the epic). It is an attempt to make esoteric philosophy weigh in on life situations that are easier to relate to, thereby elevating certain ideas.

In the opening scene of the Gita, Arjuna—repulsed by the thought of killing his kin and elders—suffers an emotional meltdown in the middle of the battlefield, right before the start of the great war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Despite his relatively righteous cause, he can’t see enough moral justification for the war and refuses to fight. ‘I do not see that any good can come from killing our relations in battle.’ (Some have compared this to Ashoka’s turning away from war, which likely preceded the composition of the Gita and may have inspired this framing.) The powerful immediacy of Arjuna’s crisis commands our attention. In about 700 verses that follow, Krishna explains to Arjuna why he must fight, using a dazzling array of ideas and tactics, many of which inspire people even today. Arjuna’s questions are large indeed: How do I know where my duty lies? How can I see the reality that lies beyond my worldy illusions? How can the restless mind attain lasting peace?

The Gita ends with Arjuna regaining his resolve to fight and overcoming his ethical concerns about the war. Eighteen days later, the war ends catastrophically; nearly everyone is killed. If you knew this but haven’t read the Gita, you might immediately suspect Krishna’s ‘wisdom’ and find more sympathy with Arjuna’s initial doubts about the war. Indeed, the arguments that Krishna employs to persuade Arjuna to fight often seem cold, too distant, manipulative, and even warmongering—unlike the rest of the Mahabharata which comes across as decidedly anti-war. Why then have so many thinkers waxed eloquent about the wisdom of the Gita, including Emerson, Thoreau, Gandhi, Nehru, Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan, Huxley, and Hesse? The Gita in fact occupies a place more exalted than most other religious texts in the world. Most Hindus, even today, accord it the cultural cachet of a work whose profundity is taken for granted. What then is so great about the Gita?

As with other ancient religious texts—perhaps more so than many others—one can weave a path through the Gita (while avoiding others) that can make it seem deep, inspiring, and even wise. It has some soaring verses that hit just the right universal notes. They emphasize the equal spiritual status of all seekers of truth. They exhort everyone to see the journey as the reward, not the destination. They disparage priestly rituals, and privilege self-awareness as a means of penetrating our veils of illusion—also defining higher and lower states of self-awareness and attributes thereof. Various verses downgrade selfish desire, pride, lust, greed, and the pursuit of power and sensual pleasure. Modern cosmologists may find profitable the advice to ‘Seek That, the First Cause, from which the universe came long ago.’

While not so novel in light of other South Asian philosophies of the day, especially Buddhism, such ideas would enhance any world religion. But they are not the whole story; the Gita in fact says a lot more. It promotes a specific ethical and metaphysical worldview, as it tries to answer the age old question: how to live? To properly evaluate the Gita, this worldview is what we should look at, not isolated verses taken out of context—many of which are flatly contradicted by other verses. What then are the dominant ethics of the Gita? What is the picture of reality that it promotes? Is the Gita as good a guide to everyday life (i.e., to our ‘inner battlefield’) as so many claim it to be?

What Song Do the Hindus Hear?

Battlefield2Many Hindus, including Mahatma Gandhi, have done highly selective and allegorical readings of the Gita. Gandhi even made it stand for peace and nonviolence. The message of the Gita, he wrote, is that spiritual fulfillment comes from selfless work; we must cultivate non-attachment to the outcome of our action—which doesn’t mean indifference to the outcome, only the lack of hankering after and brooding over it. If one follows this ‘central teaching of the Gita,’ he added without explaining why, ‘one is bound to follow truth and ahimsa [nonviolence]’. Gandhi translated the Gita from Sanskrit to Gujarati; in his introduction, he writes, ‘Krishna of the Gita is perfection and right knowledge personified.’ Shortly after though, he concedes that the Gita’s stance seems opposed to ahimsa, but then offers a painfully convoluted apology for it, citing different standards back then and calling for poetic license—going as far as saying that we don’t need to probe the mind of the author too much! This suggests that he had at least struggled with the Gita.

Gandhi’s case reminds us that what people take away from a scriptural text is inseparable from who they are and what they bring to it. Which makes me wonder about Swami Vivekananda who seems to have betrayed no struggle with the Gita, let alone the need for an apologia. Instead, with an almost thuggish glee, he coldly rubbished Arjuna’s doubt, calling it a case of fear, jitters, and unmanliness that Krishna promptly fixes by awakening his latent power. Radhakrishnan, beneath his scholarly veneer, is not much better; to him the pursuit of duty for duty’s sake is the unequivocal call of reason, and Krishna is ‘the voice of God echoing in every man’ (why not also Arjuna?).

Until its elevation by modern European scholars as the ‘Hindu Bible’—an aspect of their constructing ‘Hinduism’ as a coherent religion they could relate to—the Gita was revered by only a small minority of Indians. Sadly, it has attracted very little critical attention in modern India—I mean the kind that sacred books of many world religions have. In approaching the text, too few Indians have cut through the fog of reverence that surrounds it. Among them was the historian DD Kosambi (1907-66), who wasn’t too impressed by the Gita. In Myth and Reality (1962), he observed that a ‘slippery opportunism characterizes the whole book’. BR Ambedkar (1891-1956) saw it as Brahmanism’s response to the rising fortunes of Buddhism. In his essay, Krishna and His Gita, Ambedkar wrote, ‘The philosophic defense offered by the Bhagavad Gita of the Kshatriya’s duty to kill is, to say the least, puerile.’ The journalist and secular humanist VR Narla (1908-85) called its moral perspective ‘retrograde’. In The Truth About the Gita, Narla argued that the book condones violence and wholesale slaughter; Krishna was Machiavellian, who employed trickery, deceit, falsehood, intimidation, and blackmail to get Arjuna to overcome his moral qualms.

Written by mere mortals in a political setting but posturing as the voice of God, the Gita strives to imbue the reader with a host of ideas, beliefs, and values. Classics are ultimately defined by their ability to survive criticism. Critiques of the Gita, too, are necessary in every age, if only to know where we stand in relation to this pillar of cultural thought. My engagement with the Gita has persuaded me that it is an overrated text with a deplorable morality at its core, which should be confronted—not explained away or swept under the holy mat (admittedly, this is not as bad as sincerely trying to follow the morality of the Gita). Notably, its reflexive admirers even abound among the modern, educated Hindu upper crust, including those who live in the West.

In Part 2, I’ll probe the Gita more closely and also revive a critique of it that existed over two millennia ago, in the thought of the Buddha and then Nagarjuna. I hope that this line of inquiry will also disarm those Hindu religionists who tend to be ultra touchy about critiques of their sacred books from Western perspectives (some of which may well harbor Eurocentric biases). Meanwhile, for a quick refresher on the context and the themes of the Gita, watch this 10-minute clip from Peter Brook’s brilliant 1989 adaptation of the Mahabharata.

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Part 2 of this essay will appear on 02 Jan 2012.  More writing by Namit Arora?
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Posted by Namit Arora at 12:35 AM | Permalink

Comments

What long poem from a few hundred years ago could possibly withstand scrutiny in this manner? In any case, I thought the currently fashionable trend was in fact to use it allegorically and pick and choose the parts that are most useful for our purposes (Hindutvadis and Marxists may pick different parts or find different meanings in the same part, or we could ask Gayatri Spivak to find every meaning in every part and then evaporate)?
In fact, that may well have been the fashionable trend a thousand years ago too..I was forced to rethink my position in a discussion once where my friend suddenly announced that not only must we use the Quran as we see fit, that is exactly what everyone did when they first encountered it..

Posted by: omar | Dec 5, 2011 9:34:03 AM

3qd continues it's slide. This article is mere name calling. E.g. Quoting the Marxist idiot savant Kosambi calling the Gita: "characterized by slippery opportunism". My response: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

Most amusing is Arora's solemn scholarly tone. I can see him wearing a white lab coat studying his detested foe (The upper caste Indian) with a magnifying glass. Lighten up Namit.

Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2011 10:12:05 AM

Bravo Namit

To my eyes, the Gita looks like any other scripture, the Quran let's say or the old and new Testaments. They are rife with contradictions, especially when it comes to violence and it's use. At different times they call for peace or violence, and when this is questioned we are told we are reading them out of context. But in my view they are just opportunistic or even Machiavellian....all of them, what do you think ?

Posted by: Shahzad | Dec 5, 2011 10:58:25 AM

3QD sure slid with your comment, Sundar.

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Dec 5, 2011 11:56:09 AM

The story of war and the history of patriarchy. Written by my friend Cooper Zale, the same story from a different perspective:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/31/889214/-Our-Five-Thousand-Year-Obsession-with-the-Angry-Father-Figure

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Dec 5, 2011 11:59:36 AM

I agree with the author about the need to critique religious texts in every age. But the sources he has used (Wendy Doniger in particular) make this exercise seem more like an outpouring of vitriol than an academic critique.

For Wendy Doniger's 'scholarship', read http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262511

Perhaps when the author explains his views in the 2nd part will one know whether he really intends to critique or simply curse.

Posted by: John | Dec 5, 2011 1:07:24 PM

I am amazed how the author is able to 'fix' dates ("in 950 BCE", "The Bhagavad Gita (‘The God’s Song’), widely regarded as the philosophical core of the Mahabharata, was composed much later under the realities of a new age. It was merged into the epic’s later drafts, perhaps as late as first century CE.") almost as if he were there! Quite obviously this Namit fellow has lost the plot and seems to have just one single point agenda which is to denigrate what is undoubtedly a great text. Sadly, it shows up.

Posted by: sriram | Dec 5, 2011 1:19:25 PM

Luise, Sorry you feel that way about my comment. Anyway, I eagerly await Sri Arora's next installment. Hopefully, then he will begin his critique of the Gita.

The first installment has been mostly taken up by Sri Arora congratulating himself on his intellectual daring.

Posted by: Sundar | Dec 5, 2011 1:25:41 PM

While it is tempting to see the Gita as a militaristic response to Buddhism (and Jainism?) do we have any information about the early reception of the Gita?

Posted by: Paul | Dec 5, 2011 1:42:09 PM

The Old Testament is filled with scenes of violence, genocide and depravity, and yet it serves as an inspiration to millions of people who view it as the life story of the origins of their faith, and the all-too-human beings who tried to make sense of the world that they lived in and to leave their legacy to inspire (for better or for worse) the generations to come. Viewed in this context, the Gita is a truly remarkable chapter in the larger, older, old Testament-like epic Homeric story that is the Mahabharatha. It was unprecedented for its time in seeking to combine the Vedic and pre-Vedic metaphysics that also spawned Buddhism and Jainism with the practicalities of action; of living in harmony when faced with disharmony. It doesn't require a true-believer to appreciate the beauty of the Gita's philosophical musings. However, like the blind men seeking to describe the essence of the elephant by what they can touch, there are always some who prefer to zoom in on the feces and are (deliberately) oblivious to the magnificent living, breathing enormous being in their presence. Enjoy the proverbial 15 minutes of attention.

Posted by: Sam | Dec 5, 2011 2:43:56 PM

"An overrated text with a deplorable morality at its core"?
Alas, a doubt.
In case of more,
go to : saja.org slash saforum
(also see last post on indo-euro-americo-asian_list)
to say what it is/they are.
"a deplorable morality". What does it
Mean? Potato Loaves?
This poem is better than Stein's.
Only these Radcliffeans...

Posted by: Anand Manikutty | Dec 5, 2011 7:44:02 PM

So far I believe Namit has missed much of the point of the Mahabharata and the Gita based on his very cursory background synopsis. The Gita cannot be understood in its political, ethical and moral dimensions without the reading of the Mahabharata.

The Gita tries to touch about the transcendental and the normative world. Does it advocate violence? Yes, if necessary. Again the story of the Mahabharata and the Pandavas up to that moment in time is exceedingly relevant. The war isn't merely about land, it is about law, trust, respect, liberty and freedom.

After being exiled for 14 years, the Pandavas were supposed to get back their kingdom, which they built from a desolete land. They avoided war as much as possible even requesting only 5 villages to govern to which the Kauravas (their cousins) refused. On numerous occasions the Kauravas tried to kill the Pandavas and each time they failed and were forgiven.

In that context, Krishna was sent as an emissary of peace to the Kauravas and his peace offering was rejected. Thus, the Pandavas decided war was the only way to establish their rights.

Krishna sings or speaks the Gita to Arjuna when Arjuna refuses to fight out of despondency, when he realizes that this war will involve killing his friends and family.

I do not know Namit's critique so I will withhold my comments until I can read his critique but for readers I would keep this in mind, the Mahabharata is an epic that attempts to approach its story from many angles: realistic, cosmic (gods, demons and so on), moral (the relative nature of it), political, transcendental and mythological. The sosmic view is that it was the end of age of Dwapara and beginning of the Kali yuga, where this war was the cataclysmic shift of ages. Krishna's cosmic position in the story was to be the agent of that shift. The problem with viewing the Gita as entirely separate from the main book when it comes to non-spiritual ideas is quite clear. Finally, the Gita remained in high accord after it's creation in the philosophical and intellectual world of India. For any Vedanta school to develop, they had to write a commentary on the Gita as part of the prasthana trayi, or three pillars of Vedanta which includes the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutras. It's impact and exposure wasn't small, every vernacular language has its own translation of the gita, like Jnaneshwari of Jnaneshwar in Marathi, Kumara Vyasa Mahabharata in Kannada and others. The oldest commentary is Samkara's from the 8th century CE. Namit heavily underestimates the Gita's reverence in India until colonial period, which leads me to believe he doesn't have much background in the subject.

Kosambi and Ambedkar both had their own political reasons for being anti-Vedic, anti-Hindu, Anti-Arya and so on. Ambedkar even argues that India under the Vedic rule had no moral code or ethical code, it was not until the advent of Jainism and Buddhism that India becomes ethical. I haven't read Narla so my comments on him will be withheld. Either way, I look forward to seeing Namit's Critique.

Posted by: Mukunda | Dec 5, 2011 9:02:16 PM

It is interesting that Namit is planning to talk about how the epic was received by Nagarjuna and other people from pre-modern times. This is the usual methodology used by students of Hinduism, but I am not convinced that this approach will yield significant, new conclusions given that the people from premodern times knew far less than we do now. I am quite convinced that these "traditional scholars" lived such a long time ago that their opinions do not have much bearing on current theories surrounding Hinduism.

A particularly useful and, in my opinion, a far more fruitful approach to the Bhagavad Gita (and Hinduism, in general) is to use recent studies in neuroscience to see how the human brain has evolved ideas of morality, and to see how epics have contributed since premodern times in creating and imprinting various notions of morality in us. This is (part of) the methodology I have used for the Socratic Hinduism framework (one that I have talked about before on the SAJA forum).

Why is it useful to look at neuroscience to study how the human brain is wired for morality? Because it seems that some of the notions of morality we subscribe seem to be pretty strongly wired in us. Milton Friedman once gave an example of how libertarianism works. He said that libertarians don't want to coerce other people into accepting some particular opinion as correct. However, he recognized that there were a few exception even for libertarians. The example he used, IIRC, was of a man who was going to jump off a bridge. Would a libertarian try to save him if he could? Probably. Now if the man proceeded to give reasons why he was committing suicide, would the libertarian then allow him to jump? Probably not. No matter how strongly a person may believes in certain ideas not just politically but even personally, there are certain types of behavior that he may never be able to let go of. Another example of the resistance of people to killing others is evidenced in the trolley problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem). Both these examples would indicate that the human brain has certain notions of morality that it cannot easily let go of. (Note that none of this scientific discussion is considered in the least bit to be a heresy, and indeed, I consider the Socratic Hinduism a perfectly valid approach to view Hinduism for both Hindus and non-Hindus.)

This methodological approach makes the Socratic Hinduism framework quite powerful. It makes it both academic and scholarly, thereby countering one of the major academic criticisms of "traditional" studies of Hinduism (such as by Wendy Doniger). In fact, we do not need to discuss our own beliefs regarding whether or not the events described in the Mahabharatha actually occurred. That is left as a matter of scholarly inquiry for historians. Instead, the idea is that the texts may be used as part of a Socratic discussion wherein by guided questioning, one delves deeper into some of the issues of ethics and moral philosophy that the epic presents. Indeed, the historical role of these religious texts has been to raise these question of ethics and moral philosophy and help people appreciate the complexity of some of these issues. That has always been the role of these texts, and that is what it continues to be under Socratic Hinduism.

Moving on to more pragmatic concerns : in America today, you typically don't find fundamentalist readings of these texts at any of the major universities. The text is generally taught with a spirit of 'tolerance'. In India today, the legal system defines Hinduism as one that recognizes 'multiple' ways (the specifics of the Indian legal system's treatment of Hinduism is a different discussion altogether). There is a real separation of religion and state in both countries, and so I don't see very much worisome, or even concerning, about the Gita's particular opinions on war. Its impact on policy is likely to remain quite insignificant.
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Posted on SAJA's South Asia Forum.
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Posted by: Anand Manikutty | Dec 5, 2011 10:19:06 PM

While most religious texts are embarassing Bronze and Iron Age Fiction, I agree the Gita is especially childish.

Even though the Pali Cannon was written 400 years after Buddha's death, in another language, by monastics, on an isolated island (the fidelity of this is very questionable), the rebellion against the Gita and other vedic nonsense still come through.

Codependent origination anyone?

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 5, 2011 10:52:22 PM

Does anyone know the number of heretics who have been burned for not accepting that the Gita is the revealed divine words of 'Our Lords Gods' dwelling on Mount Kailasa?

Posted by: ncp170 | Dec 5, 2011 11:55:31 PM

ncp, you may be asking the wrong question. What if we rephrased it to ask how many people have been killed, maimed or tortured, for any reason, by anyone, in India or China or Arabia or France?
The proportions (per capita killing rate or maiming rate or torture rate) may not be exactly the same, but will not differ by orders of magnitude among regions; though Pinker seems to show that they do differ by a lot as we move through time.
An Indophobe (I am the opposite, in case you are interested) may start counting number of women burned with their dead husbands...that number may be smaller than the Indophobe thinks, but is likely to exceed the number of heretics burned by the church in 2000 years.
The excuses vary.

Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2011 9:08:19 AM

I say we bring back the much maligned Spanish Inquisition, just to bring some equanimity to this madness.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 6, 2011 11:19:14 AM

"..number of women burned with their dead husbands...is likely to exceed the number of heretics burned by the church in 2000 years."

Why stop with numbers of heretics burned? When one includes the numbers of witches burned or drowned, women stoned and decapitated, cities razed and heads piled up in pyramids (all glowingly jotted down by chroniclers of that time), and mountain ranges named for the blood of millions of prisoners forced to trek into slavery, all in the name of religion, the numbers would be very lopsided.

It might surprise even an Indophile like yourself that the number of women burned with their dead husbands was/is probably quite small, being a practice that was restricted to a select few communities in Northern India and quite rare enough for these women to be "honored" by their communities in the manner of shaheeds and other "martyrs" in other communities. Not that the numbers would come even close to match as this as a comparator, either.

Posted by: Sam | Dec 6, 2011 12:58:30 PM

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Posted by: Sam | Dec 6, 2011 12:59:57 PM

I agree with Omar that selective and allegorical interpretations of sacred texts are very human and even necessary. But I'm not sure what to say to those who are offended by the very idea of contrarian interpretations—and resort to angry defensiveness. Isn't a space for dissenting viewpoints, upheld or debunked via reasoned debate, necessary in modern nations? Below are my brief responses to some points that have been raised. I'll cover them in more detail in Part 2.

I don't hold it against the Gita that it tries to get Arjuna to fight a violent war. Die-hard pacifists aside, the rest of us, in principle, subscribe to the idea of a ‘just war’. This war could be that. It’s possible that Arjuna has lost sight of the larger cause of justice, and has been overwhelmed by the emotional trauma of committing a lesser evil en route, namely, killing his relatives. So what's particularly important are the arguments that Krishna uses to help Arjuna understand his duty to fight. The task of evaluating the Gita then is inseparable from evaluating the arguments Krishna uses to persuade Arjuna. In part 2, I'll look at what he actually says, not what I want to believe.

I happen to think that Krishna's core arguments are terribly bad and anti-human (they could have been good, but they're not—which leaves decent people like Gandhi no choice but to ignore much of it). For e.g., Krishna tells Arjuna that he can't really kill anyone, because one is never born and one never dies; there is neither slayer nor slain—to imagine so is an illusion of the mind. The Self cannot be pierced by weapons because it is part of an everlasting eternal reality. Arjuna is not convinced. So Krishna ups the ante: why worry about killing your relatives, he says, since death is inevitable for the living? Krishna then moves on to advocating extreme detachment, the kind from where a cow and an uncle appear no different—life from the cosmic perspective, as this ideology imagines it to be—a suitably desensitizing stance good for turning a warrior into a killing machine. And so on it goes, one dehumanizing argument after another, until eventually Krishna resorts to "just trust me! Be devoted to me [the bhakti strand], I will see to it that no harm comes to you if you do as I say."

In short, I have no problem with Krishna trying to get Arjuna to fight a war. I just find his primary arguments to be quite anti-humanistic, puerile, and irrational. More in part 2!

Posted by: Namit | Dec 6, 2011 1:24:26 PM

Puerile and irrational, yes, but with regard to your shallow attempt at analysis. Even the Buddha would come out as anti-humanistic, puerile and irrational in this reading based on, essentially, the same view of the cosmos.

Posted by: Sam | Dec 6, 2011 1:55:55 PM

Sam, not at all! You are mistaken. Despite common roots, Buddhist metaphysics is quite different, perhaps more than Wittgenstein's is from Kant's. The Buddha abandoned Hinduism's atman and Brahman—there is no ultimate reality to speak of in Buddhism, let alone something to attain. Buddhist enlightenment differs from Moksha. The Buddha was anti-hierarchy, and had a different idea of dharma (not dependent on birth). Compassion for other beings was central to his moral landscape. The Bodhisattva stance is very humanistic. There is no God and no Bhakti. There is no close comparison.

Posted by: Namit | Dec 6, 2011 2:23:38 PM

I am aware that the number of women burned is smaller than most people think, primarily because you needed to have some status to qualify for the honor. All the other killings you refer to would certainly increase numbers by a lot. My point was not that all religions are equally violent (they are not). My point was that humans are a violent species. The killing doesnt have to be in the name of religion. Lot of killing can be done for other reasons and was probably done in India too, but not with the same justifications...but you made me think. I could be wrong.
Were native Indian peasant societies and their rulers equal perpetrators of violence (whatever the excuse)? does the same apply to native Chinese (a similarly densely populated agrarian civilization)? Peasants in the great river valleys far outnumber nomads, but nomads seem to have done more killing, peasants being more killed than killers.
I look forward to seeing more detailed numbers from someone on this question, but it could be that settled agrarian civilizations were generally less violent (per capita basis)than the nomadic hordes? And where should we put Europeans in this equation? Is there an Indian equivalent to the immense death tolls of the religious wars in Europe?
Just to take a relatively recent example, did the Sikhs kill large numbers in the same way as their Islamicate-Turko-Afghan oppressors when they got the upper hand? They did destroy Sirhind totally and their conquest of Kasur was said to be very violent, but what was the overall massacre quotient? what was the usual killing rate when local Indian potentates fought each other prior to the recent North-Western invasions (we probably don't know too much about more distant past invaders)? Were cities massacred in similar proportions as the massacres that occurred in the conquests and reconquests by the Delhi Sultanate? I have not read enough about this. Certainly the Mahabharat is full of exaggerated death tolls in supposed grand battles, but what about massacres? And how to compare various historical time periods that are not parallel to each other?... This needs a more researched response...Google, incidentally, served up these links:
http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/violence.htm
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Religious_violence_in_India

Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2011 3:05:46 PM

Namit, which Buddhist metaphysics do you refer to? The Yogacara's? The "Consciousness only" school of Buddhism? The Sautranikas? The Pudgalavadins? Madhyamikas, who for all purposes were the basis of a lot of Gaudapada's Advaita then later Samkara's?

Your understanding of Buddhism is very very simplistic. Nagarjuna's Mula Madhyamika Karikas, the cornerstone for most Madhyamika Buddhism admits the idea of an Ultimate Reality, Shunya, which he then equates with Nirvana. Moksha and Nirvana are essentially the same, whereas most Buddhist schools tend to speak of Nirvana in negatives such as "not this, not that", the Hindu schools do it in both negative such as the idea of "neti, neti" and positive, sat chit ananda ("reality, consciousness and bliss"). Nagarjuna makes bifurcation of conceptions of reality, samvritti = phenomenal world and paramartha = ultimate reality. He then says they are the one and same from the perspective of Shunya. The simplistic view you present of Buddhist metaphysics and ontology is merely a straw man as to show how Buddhist thought and Hindu thought specifically in regards to world view are different and Buddhist thought triumphs.

Again, your views on Dharma are entirely incomplete. Yes, Hindu thought does have the evil of dharma based on birth but thats not the only basis for Dharma or the larger concept of Rta.

Bhakthi is huge in Madhyamika Buddhism, worship of Avalokiteshwara not to mention the Bhakti in early buddhism (refer to B.G.Gokhale). Forget not, that Buddha was considered enlightened in possession of the Ultimate Truth and as such infallible in matters concerning the Ultimate Truth/Reality. Buddhism is as much of a religion as Hinduism is. Two strains in Indian thought have been Brahmanic and Sramanic. Hinduism has elements of both but the importance is sometimes placed more on the Brahmanic notions, the Upanishads were the Sramanic force in Hindu thought. While Buddhism, Jainism and Ajivikas all developed nearly exclusively out of the Sramanic traditions. They all are religions, they have a metaphysical understanding of the universe, doctrines of reality and truth and deities. Please do not assume that Buddha or Mahavira are not deities, they may not be some Creator God but neither is the idea of Brahman. Buddha in many of the buddhist scriptures is omniscient, omnipotent and all the typical qualities of Brahman or even Shiva/Vishnu. There are very strong comparisons and interactions between the two.

Posted by: Mukunda | Dec 6, 2011 3:47:44 PM

Namit,

If Buddhism is anti-hierarchy, why were the serfs subject to getting their eyes gouged out or their limbs cut off?

Maybe this is a Chinese propaganda YouTube, but whatever it is, the earlier state of Tibet does not appear to be compassionate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw-G9P4Bz0I&feature=related

Dave Ranning probably has all the answers.

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Dec 6, 2011 3:49:26 PM

Similarly, Vajrayana Buddhism of which Tibetan Buddhism is descended from is a very deity centric and ritualistic Buddhism that also adheres to the two truths of samvritti and paramartha.

Posted by: Mukunda | Dec 6, 2011 3:52:40 PM

Mukunda,

I know a thing or two about Nagarjuna and his articulation of Shunya (for what it's worth—maybe not much—both academics I cite in the article later sent me glowing reviews). I disagree with you profoundly on many points and it seems to me that it won't be easy to reach any convergence here, not without expending a lot more time, which I don't have.

Louise,

I was disagreeing with Sam's facile comparison between the Gita's philosophy and the Buddha's. I said there is a world of difference. As to what people do with them, the mileage of course varies. I mean people's lives are shaped by all kinds of factors besides their leading religious philosophies: economics, patriarchy, geography, politics, climate, older customs and beliefs, etc. People tend to "shake well before use." :)

Posted by: Namit | Dec 6, 2011 5:03:29 PM

I am very skeptical about comparisons of arcane religious theological issues as if they determine war and peace. Even explicit rejection of war (as in the Quakers) was not able to prevent Richard Nixon from waging war. What Buddhist country has a better record of peacekeeping than India (which has no great record of peace as far as i can tell)?
Sinhalese Buddhists vs the Tamil Tigers. Even Islam, according to many Muslims (and that semi-educated Nun whose name slips my mind) is a religion of peace..

Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2011 6:06:52 PM

Namit, my facile assertion of common underpinnings to Buddhist and Hindu views of the cosmos don't come even close to your glib assertions of expertise on this subject; the glowing reviews from certain academics notwithstanding. But you are doing a fabulous job in this regard all by yourself, so I look forward to part deux.

Posted by: Sam | Dec 6, 2011 6:52:10 PM

There is something childlike about Namit Arora. When he says things like "I think Krishna's arguments are terribly bad.... they could have been good..". And not a particularly bright child.

Aspergers perhaps? His web site says: IIT, Silicon Valley. So odds are good for Aspergers.

Sorry I'm getting all personal. But this is just too funny.

Posted by: Sundar | Dec 6, 2011 7:20:26 PM

"All the other killings you refer to would certainly increase numbers by a lot."

Omar, you had earlier asked ncp, and I quote, "(w)hat if we rephrased it to ask how many people have been killed, maimed or tortured, for any reason, by anyone,.." to his/her (factious?) query about numbers of Hindus burned by fellow Hindus over doctrine. And then you narrowed this down to heretics burned by the church balanced against women committing sati, which seemed a rather odd limitation. But no matter....

Humans are indeed a violent species, and religion has been used to justify violence (as Sam Harris and others have eloquently pointed out), and certain exclusionary-based religions have been even more prone towards applying violence towards nonbelievers (as Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, in particular, have written and spoken about more bluntly and honestly than most).

There are differences, and it is not just a matter of moral relativism (to hark back at another thread). And Karen Armstrong has written and said many things about religion but, like Deepak Chopra, hardly the expert to base anything substantial upon - even if they also get glowing reviews for their bestselling books from some academics.

Posted by: Sam | Dec 6, 2011 7:33:12 PM

Ah yes, Karen Armstrong, Thanks.
I wouldnt put her in the same class as Chopra. Chopra is an old fashioned salesman and huckster and a good one. I dont think he has too many illusions.

Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2011 10:06:37 PM

Ah yes, Karen Armstrong, Thanks.
I wouldnt put her in the same class as Chopra.

I agree, but Armstrong is worse.
Chopra knows he is a con, even if its subconscious.
Sadly, Armstrong doesn't.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 6, 2011 10:26:00 PM

Similarly, Vajrayana Buddhism of which Tibetan Buddhism is descended from is a very deity centric and ritualistic Buddhism that also adheres to the two truths of samvritti and paramartha.

99.999 of Buddhism is superstition based like other religions, with an elite controlling thought and action, in alliance with political elites.

Mahayana is totally superstition based, and most cultures drag feudal and patriarchal pasts into the practice.

However, that small percentage willing to explore codependent origination makes it interesting.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 6, 2011 10:38:00 PM

Gimme.A.Break.

Posted by: Mani Sitaraman | Dec 6, 2011 11:04:53 PM

"I agree, but Armstrong is worse."
That IS what I meant...well, worse or just tragic. Isnt there something tragic about this? I somehow dont find Chopra and Gayatri Spivak tragic at all. They are having fun. I am not sure she is having any fun at all...

Posted by: omar | Dec 6, 2011 11:14:15 PM

I couldn't agree more omar.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 6, 2011 11:20:00 PM

I mean people's lives are shaped by all kinds of factors besides their leading religious philosophies: economics, patriarchy, geography, politics, climate, older customs and beliefs, etc. People tend to "shake well before use." :)

Bingo!
Everything is causal based--

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 6, 2011 11:25:30 PM

Sundar, would you like to identify yourself so we can judge your contribution on an equal footing to Namit's?

Posted by: Zara | Dec 6, 2011 11:50:24 PM

"Everything is causal based--"

Not according to Bell's inequality....

Posted by: Sam | Dec 7, 2011 12:33:53 AM

Golly, it's heartwarming to see folks getting all worked up about literature -- take a bow for that, Namit! For once, I don't even mind some people turning a little nasty. Except that she's a busy woman with a full life, and is probably not here with us tonight, even Karen Armstrong would enjoy this. It all puts me in mind of that subplot in _The Magic Mountain_ wherein Fr. Naphta and Sig. Settembrini decide to have a duel to the death: their disagreements are not only very great but hugely portentous; they are mortally ill with TB; and they deeply believe some ideas are worth dying for.

Lovely!!!! And I do hope _The Eddas_ will be playing here soon. While it's standard New Atheist schtick to say that Christ will one day have all the relevance of Thor, whoever doesn't read Norse mythology is really losing out on an astonishing vision.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Dec 7, 2011 1:34:24 AM

I'm with you, Elatia. The Gita as the Great Lacuna.

Posted by: Zara | Dec 7, 2011 1:56:10 AM

Elatia-
I was eying The Magic Mountain just yesterday for another read, as a beautiful old edition is in my bookcase.

Being of Swedish decent, and having a Swedish ex wife, Norse Mythology was always present.

That horrifying Bronze and Iron Age Fiction from West Asia and North Africa?

I'll pass.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 7, 2011 10:11:08 AM

The infernal hounds are baying at the gates and the armies of the Giants are on the march! To arms..Ragnarok is at hand!

Posted by: Bill | Dec 7, 2011 10:24:24 AM

Two books that I recently enjoyed immensely (with regards to Norse mythology):

The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún by J. R. R. Tolkien. Wonderful narrative poem in the style of Old Norse...but composed by Prof. Tolkien in the 1930s.

Beowulf translated by Seamus Heaney. Again, in that wonderful terse, alliterative style of early medieval Germanic poetry.

Posted by: Bill | Dec 7, 2011 10:33:17 AM

As with other texts, the Bhagavad Gita needs to be read selectively and in a highly subjective manner. You take from it what helps you personally. I agree that the morality in the Gita is contradictory and ambiguous, but is there any source in which it's not?

One thing I find enormously satisfying about the Gita is that many of its lessons apply to the simplest things in life. One does not have to talk about lofty moral dilemmas to appreciate the virtues of the poem. To me, the part of the Bhagavad Gita that extols the virtues of detached achievement has been most useful. This approach helps even in the simplest of tasks, like solving a scientific problem or organizing my workday.

Personally I regard the Gita as little more than a metaphor- not to mention beautiful poetry full of interesting analogies- that sometimes provides useful lessons on how to live. Anyone who regards *any* text as an unvarnished source of truth, let alone morality, is already making a mistake. For the rest of us this post preaches to the choir.

Posted by: Ashutosh | Dec 7, 2011 3:18:53 PM

Never mind that silly Indian nonsense: what I really want to know is, were the Eddas influenced by Christianity? I sometimes wonder if Odin receiving the runes while hung on the tree was sort of a late-pagan response to the crucifixion.

Cattle die, kinsmen die, but a good story sticks around. My favourite is the one about Thor in Utgardh in Snorri's Edda, it really resembles a modern short story.

Posted by: Sagredo | Dec 8, 2011 4:04:50 AM

Ashutosh, right on brother. Gita is epic poetry and very particular to the time, place and situation of its telling. It is contradictory and it is also an attempt to be syncretic, by trying to merge nyaya, yoga, samkhya with the views of the Upanishads and the Vedas. It's morality is a mixture idealism and realism. That being said, I do love the sanskrit of the Gita some of which is taken verbatim out of the Upanishads. Krishna does once again say the Gita later in the Mahabharata in a section known as AnuGita which is without the provocation towards war and more about philosophy and such.

Posted by: Mukunda | Dec 9, 2011 6:04:08 PM

I don't see much wrong with your criticism of the Gita, except for the fact that for the most part you are not are not actually criticizing the Gita. You are mainly quoting the critiques of others.

That apart, I also see that you have deep appreciation and admiration of some threads one can weave through the Gita.

What worries me though, is that the criticism and the appreciation do not convincingly add up to the summary you have posed: "Why the Bhagavad Gita is an overrated text with a deplorable morality at its core". The admiration for the Gita that your article betrays your summary as premeditated and insincere.

Posted by: Ankur | Dec 9, 2011 6:48:19 PM

Namit,

Here are a few other points that you may like to reflect upon in your analysis of the Gita.

It is incorrect to obsess over those parts of the Gita that are derived specifically out of its war setting. The stark and extreme setting of war against one's own, serves mainly as a guide for what to one ought to do in other more mundane settings. The message is to do one's duty with detachment. As a consequence, there are things Krishna says which are bound to be anti-humanist; they do, after all specify the duty of a soldier, which needn't necessarily be humanist. Naturally, Krishna's instructions are not to be applied verbatim to all situations.

Second. The Gita is not a bunch of do's and dont's. It is literature; it is to be read in its entirety (Mahabharat included, someone said above) as a story with a message. The Gita is profound, not because it is a book of formulae for life. It is a book that leaves with one with a certain influence and that influence is its essence and message. I think you are going in with the assumption that the Gita is a book of commandments; if you do so, you are bound to misread it.

Third. The Gita is not necessarily about morality; and profundity is distinct from being about morality. The Gita is about what a man *ought* to do, in particular when commitments from diverse aspects of a man's life come in conflict. It is profound, because it provides a clear voice of reason through this intractibility.

Finally, Hinduism is a quest to realize the potentialities of man. It holds that as the highest ethic, unlike other religions which hold charity and kindness as higher. It has needed several reform movements to dilute the classical Hindu ethic to include compassion. In a sense, Hinduism is highly individualistic and somewhat contemptuous towards society as a whole. The Gita is one of the purest articulations of the "dharma" part of the classical Hindu philosophy.

Posted by: Ankur | Dec 9, 2011 7:38:24 PM

"Kill them all and let God sort them out. "

The context for this phrase is provided here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

I wonder if the above was also inspired by a reading of the Gita.

Not to mention the subservient role of women .....

Posted by: Suresh | Dec 10, 2011 11:19:27 PM

Although not in the Gita, my favorite one is about Ram's Army of Monkeys building the bridge to Sri Lanka.

Of course, with Talking Snakes and Flying Horses, Christianity and Islam challenge ones ability not to burst out laughing!
But embarrassing and childlike stories are the foundation of Bronze and Iron Age fiction.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 11, 2011 11:30:08 AM

Namit:

I had earlier this year contacted Avinash Dixit about one of his books ("The Art of Strategy", IIRC). My email was regarding his game theoretic analysis of the 1984 Orange Bowl. Upon reflecting on this, I realize that Krishna's argument is actually isomorophic to that decision situation. I have read the Critical Edition of the Mahabharata, and it is pretty clear to me, and surely even the casual reader, that Krishna had a point that cannot be simply dismissed. A soldier cannot simply leave a battle. People ought to play their roles. You don't need a game theoretic analysis to see that.

I mentioned Wendy Doniger's book in my email to you. I went back and re-read some of Wendy Donier's book "The Hindus". Still, no cigar. (Amartya Sen's father) Kshiti Mohan Sen's book is a much better reference, and is more cite-worthy. It is nothing personal against Wendy Doniger. It is just that Wendy Doniger is wrong a lot of the time, and I have an addiction to being right. :)

Anyway, looking forward to the second part of your article.
-+-
Cross-posted to SAJA's South Asia Forum : http://www.saja.org/saforum?mode=MessageList&eid=766680&tpg=2
-+-

Posted by: Anand Manikutty | Dec 12, 2011 8:36:32 PM

Namit,

You certainly aim for a low bar, if not the wrong one. Neither Doniger nor Pollock is schooled in Indian philosophy. And while Pollock has a middling reputation as a Sanskritist, Doniger has none. It's impossible to take a book with a title like "Hindus,an Alternative History" seriously. Substitute Buddhists/Christians/Muslims above and find one scholar who won't laugh at it. Doniger is so ill-informed that she could not produce even an MS-Encarta article on Hinduism!

I did read your article on Nagarjuna, and as with this one, I find it is entirely informed by popular third-hand accounts of what people think Nagarjuna proposed and taught. In short there isn't anything in it that would stand in a rigorous traditional style tarka. Here too I find you have simply borrowed from popular accounts. And that shows up in howlers like this one,

"This means that the philosophy it [Gita] espouses is often not in accord with the moral ambiguities of the larger epic [Mahabharata]"

If you are familiar with the tail end of the epic you would know that Gandhari cursed Krishna for the destruction of her progeny and foretold the death of the entire Yadava clan.

Anyway this is still interesting, and I will wait for Part-2 of your article. Enjoy the New Year!

Posted by: Mustermark | Dec 13, 2011 12:01:39 AM

Just to point out that one of the themes in the Mahabharata is that Krishna treated his cousins Duryodhana and Arjuna equally. In fact, Krishna actually gives Duryodhana a Vishvaroopa darshan (in the pre-war period, while trying to avert the conflict) before he gives Arjuna the darshan on the battlefield, during the teaching of the Gita.

So, if the Gita was inserted into the Mahabharata much later, it was inserted really artfully,

Posted by: Arun | Dec 16, 2011 6:51:35 AM

Ah, since I can post comments, I will continue - the point to notice is that the Vishvaroop darshan Krishna gave Duryodhana (and the entire Kaurava court) had absolutely no effect on Duryodhana's determination that "as long as I live, even that much of our land which may be covered by the point of a sharp needle shall not, O Madhava, be given by us unto the Pandavas".

If you read the Gita by itself, without considering how it has been embedded in the epic, it would seem that Arjuna has a choice to avoid the war. But actually Arjuna has no real choice in the matter; the only choice he has is how he faces the inevitable. Without understanding that, the Gita's morality indeed can be questioned.

Posted by: Arun | Dec 16, 2011 7:24:33 AM

"Until its elevation by modern European scholars as the ‘Hindu Bible’—an aspect of their constructing ‘Hinduism’ as a coherent religion they could relate to—the Gita was revered by only a small minority of Indians. " --
Somehow the above statement destroys any respect that I have for the writer.

On a side note, it is interesting that 1000 AD, Alberuni has virtually a complete synopsis of the Gita in his Indica. So maybe it was the Muslims that elevated the Gita for the Hindus? (along with bringing them civilization, that is).

http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2006/09/al-biruni-and-bhagavad-gita.html


Posted by: Arun | Dec 16, 2011 8:13:11 AM

Some more - yes, Gandhi read the Gita in his own way. Which is why he advocated that the Jews resist Hitler only non-violently. In reality, Europeans faced the situation that Arjuna did - they understood that the great war would be ruinous to their civilization, but that it could not be avoided. Blood, sweat and tears were called for. But of course, since this is a European tale, instead of that of morally primitive Hindus, the approach to WWII is different. The Niall Ferguson comment re: Pankaj Mishra, linked below, about "the Indian inferiority complex" seems applicable to Namit Arora as well. The inferiority complex is in picture because he seems to have swallowed undigested the framework emanating from western academia; because the proof he knows his Buddhism is glowing reviews from western academics (if one understands these philosophies, one stands on one's own, and doesn't need anyone's praise. It is as though Sachin Tendulkar says, I'm a great batsman because the UK Guardian sportswriters say so.)

http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/7482658/on-being-called-a-racist.thtml

Posted by: Arun | Dec 16, 2011 9:46:37 AM

Some people may find this useful and relevant to what is coming next.

(PDF file)
http://sites.google.com/site/colonialconsciousness/Chapter_4_Heathen.PDF

It is the Chapter 4 link on this page:

http://sites.google.com/site/colonialconsciousness/theheatheninhisblindness

Posted by: Arun | Dec 16, 2011 12:04:04 PM

LOL!

Posted by: prasad | Dec 16, 2011 12:58:41 PM

Namit, it looks like the Russians have been mindful of your critique, at least: http://books.hindustantimes.com/2011/12/bhagavad-gita-faces-ban-in-russia/

Posted by: panopticonopolis | Dec 18, 2011 2:26:58 PM

> Namit, it looks like the Russians have
> been mindful of your critique, at
> least:
> http://books.hindustantimes.com/2011/12

We have the better argument, and naturally, we won this round.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-12-29/india/30568440_1_sadhu-priya-das-court-in-tomsk-city-extremist-materials

Posted by: Anand Manikutty | Jan 3, 2012 2:23:00 AM

Gita is different to other texts. It is sublime. You need to open your heart to understand it.

Posted by: Indu | Apr 10, 2012 5:35:41 AM

BHAGAVAD GITA
If we delve deep into the Mahabharata, it is only a story of a war between two families. It remained a story for several centuries. During the Hindu kingdoms of Gupta, Vijayanagar and Mahratta the story aspect of the Mahabharata alone was etched in the minds of the prople. There were no philosophical discourses in temples. Devotees worshiped the idols of gods and goddesses. All Hindu scriptures remained mnemonic and there were no manuscripts, for it was considered sacreligious to produce manuscripts or to print books of the sacred scriptures. A prayer like the Gayatri mantra could be recited only by Brahmins. If a non-Brahmin had accidentally heard the recital by a Brahmin, molten led would be poured into his ears. The Asiatic Society was founded in 1784 by William Jones. While still on board of the frigate Crococlile carrying him from England to India, he prepared a memorandum detailing his plan of study. This included “the laws of the Hindus and Mahomedans; the history of the ancient world; proofs and illustrations of scripture; traditions concerning the deluge; modern politics and geography of Hindusthan; Arithmatic and Geometry and mixed sciences of Asiaticks; Medicine, Chemistry, Surgery and Anatomy of the Indians; natural products of India; poetry, rhetoric and morality of Asia; music of the Eastern nations; the best accounts of Tibet and Kashmir; trade, manufactures, agriculture and commerce of India: Mughal constitution, Marhatta constitution etc." So even before landing India, Jones was bent upon establishing the fact that ancient Indians were well versed in philosophy, mathematicas, science and medicine. But there were no manuscripts of Hindu scriptures and no original sources about Indian knowledge of science and medicine. The preferred method of Jones and other British scholars was to sit in the company of Sankrit-knowing Brahmins's and other Hindus, and to ask them to recite from memory Hindu scriptures. Scientists say that memory loss begins at the age of 40. How could the old Brahmins recite by heart century-old Scriptures? Recital by Brahmins contained many modern ideas which they have learnt from the educational institutions founded by the Missionaries and government in Calcutta. William Jones and other Orientalists syncretised Sanskrit with Classical and Biblical narratives, to establish transcultural correspondences by means of often crude conjectural etymologies. There were Brahmins such as Pundit Ramlochan,Balachandra Siromani, Rajendralala Misra, Bala Sastri of Benares, Radhakanta Sarman who were allowed to produce their own versions of Hindu scriptures. . Brahmin scholars could get easy access to Christian scriptures and western literature because of the establishment of Fort William College and Sanskrit college in Calcutta by the government. Another scholar, Francis Wilford, claimed that he had discovered the relationship among Hindu traditions, the Bible and the ancient British antiquities. Jones and other scholars, in collaboration with Brahmins, produced Sanskrit manuscripts with these fake claims. Krishna’s narration of creation in the Bhagavad Gita and the creation account in the Manu smriti produced by Jones are modified reproduction of the creation account in the Bible. Sir Charles Wilkins translated the Bhagavad Gita into English in 1785, and he had used the Sanskrit manuscript produced by Asiatic Society scholars with so many interpolations and deletions. Deception and forgeries can be detected in the manuscripts produced by them. In 1788, Wilford, claimed to have found innumerable references to ancient Egypt, its Kings and holy places in Puranas by publishing a long text of baroque complexity in Asiatic Researches. However, Wilford was forced to admit with a humiliating note in the same journal that he had been systematically duped by his head Brahmin Pandit between 1793 and 1805. Probably the modernized version of the Bhagavad Gita was interpolated during this period.

Posted by: A.Yeshuratnam | Jan 14, 2013 12:43:02 PM

Dr. Ramvilas Sharma, the Hindi critic, historian and linguist has an interesting take on the Bhagwatgita.

He argues that the Bhagwatgita is a document of the time of transition from a tribal society to a full-fledged feudal society.

To facilitate this transition a text like Bhagwatgita was required which debunked tribal ideologies and beliefs and established a system of ethics and morals that was more in line with a feudal society.

The most distinguishing feature of a tribal society is that everyone in it is related to each other by blood. Every member of a tribe is an equal owner of the properties of the tribe. Killing members of one's own tribe is taboo as it weakens the tribe. Aggression has to be directed against the members of other tribes.

By the time of the Mahabharata war,society has progressed much beyond tribal values. Many kingdoms have come up, feudal relations are being forged.

But tribal values such as the ones outlined above were coming in the way of development of feudal societies.

Notice how Arjun argues his case in the Gita. He objects to killing his uncles, brothers, cousins and other blood relations in the other camp. This is taboo in tribal culture - the killing of blood relations - no wonder Arjun finds this abhorrent.

Krishna convinces him, by specious arguments if you ask me, that you can't kill the soul, only the bodies of these people. The soul is indestructible. So go ahead and unleash the Gandiva on your foes without moral qualms! In effect Krishna puts forwards a new argument, a new set of values where duty (decided by the feudal system) is of paramount importance. It is duty that has from now onwards to be respected, not tribal blood relations.

This shift in values was essential for feudal society to take root. And Bhagwatgita successfully promotes this new set of values.

The emergence of large feudal kingdoms like that of the Mauryans immediately after the Mahabharata war, prove the level of success Bhagwatgita achieved in establishing this new value system.

Posted by: Kabir | Apr 25, 2013 2:28:56 AM

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Acclaim For 3QD


"I couldn't tear myself away from 3 Quarks Daily, to the point of neglecting my work. Congratulations on this superb site."—Steven Pinker, Johnstone Professor of Psychology, Harvard University.

"I have placed 3 Quarks Daily at the head of my list of web bookmarks."—Richard Dawkins, Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University.

"Just wanted you to know I’m one of many who reads and enjoys 3 Quarks....almost daily."—David Byrne, musician, former lead-singer of the Talking Heads, artist, intellectual.

Read more here.

The 3QD Prizes

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