August 15, 2011
Midnight’s problem child
by Omar Ali
Pakistan and India are celebrating the 64th anniversary of “Freedom at midnight” with their usual mix of nationalism and jingoism (Bangladesh seems to ignore this nightmarish dream anniversary and will be mostly ignored in this article). The fashionable opinion about India (within and without, though perhapsless on the Indian left) seems fairly positive; about Pakistan, decidedly muddled if not outright negative. Is this asymmetry another manifestation of the unfair assessments of an Islamophobic world? Or does this difference in perception have a basis in fact?
I am going to make twin arguments: that the difference in everyday life, everyday oppressions and everyday successes is LESS than commonly stated (though a gap may finally be opening up), but at the same time, the asymmetry in their ideals and foundational myths is much greater than outsiders tend to see. Outsiders in general tend to see other nations as generic “nations”; they assume (usually unconsciously) that the default “national interests” are likely to be reflections of the same set of assumptions everywhere. My argument here is that this is frequently true and is true enough of India and Pakistan in many cases (e.g. in negotiations over river waters), but there are some unique elements in the Pakistan story that slowly but steadily push in a less desirable direction, even as the normal evolution of society brings in modernization and economic growth; and unless these are damped down, these “unique elements” have the potential to sink Pakistan. On the other hand, if these can be ignored or painted over, then Pakistan too can become just another “normal” South Asian country, faced with similar problems (some worse, some much less than its neighbors), to which similar solutions can be proposed.
So, first to the similarities: India and Pakistan are obviously part of the same greater Indian civilization; culturally and genetically similar enough to be identifiable as “Indian” in origin and distinct enough from other civilizational centers to qualify for their own unique label (Pakhtoons and Balochis will quibble, but time and the accidents of recent history have pulled them closer to India and Pakistan whether they like it or not; still they do have an argument, Punjabis and Sindhis are so Indian that no serious argument for being “non-Indian” can be entertained). Both are parts of what used to be British India and inherited similar administrative and political structures; structures that were colonial, corruption prone at the lower level, and unrepresentative, but also provided a basis for Westminster style democracy to a degree greater than that inherited by many other postcolonial nations. Most of their populations were similarly impoverished, though the small commercial class was predominantly Hindu and with the horrors of partition, was lost to Pakistan. Though there was an obvious religious divide and all major religions were plagued by their own share of fanatics and bigots, most ordinary people were participants in a remarkably tolerant and syncretic cultural tradition. A culture in which very sharply different religious traditions still had intercourse and managed to give birth to some strikingly handsome children.
64 years of political division are not enough to destroy such deep common roots. Both countries still speak some of the same languages, play the same music, watch the same movies and eat the same food. Not only that, they continue to have striking similarities in everyday political and administrative terms at the lower level. State functionaries are similarly corrupt, gangsters and mafias are similarly distributed and similarly powerful and intersect with politics in similar ways at a local level. The higher judiciary in Pakistan still refers to Indian legal judgments and both sides copy administrative and bureaucratic innovations from each other (usually without admitting it, though sometimes it is not copying, it’s convergent evolution). There are major differences emerging at the higher level and fine-grained differences at every level, but the similarities are striking to outsiders, especially after they expect the two states to be radically different. Social life and social problems also stubbornly mirror each other. The point of this litany is that common historical, cultural and social roots have not been completely effaced by 64 years of political division and provide the basis for making similarity the default assumption rather than treating it as an unexpected exception.
But if the two are more similar than different as cultures and economies (except at the largest scale), the foundational myths and formal national ideologies could not be more different. And it is my argument here that this difference is in India’s favor; the more Pakistan actually becomes what its official ideology claims it to be, the less successful it will be. The more India becomes like its foundational myth and reigning ideology claim to be, the more successful it will be as a modern state. Keep in mind that NEITHER country sets a good example of being what it claims to be, so the difference in practice is still less than the difference in theory. But there IS a difference and if it keeps getting larger, it will devour Pakistan. Here, without further ado, are the bare bones of the argument:
- Partition was not an equally desirable or undesirable outcome for both India and Pakistan. It was the fulfillment of a desire for Pakistan (even if they were unhappy with the borders), but an undesirable compromise for India. While Muslim “nationalism” was not the only driver of partition (Hindu nationalism played a big role and even the “two nation theory” was proposed byHindu right wingers before it was coopted for Jinnah sahib’s demand for Pakistan) It was Pakistan which subsequently owned it as a desired and even logical endpoint of the arrival of Islam in India. Even though Hindu nationalists insisted, perhaps even more vigorously than most Indian Muslims, that Muslims were an alien presence in their midst, it was not Hindu right-wingers who created Pakistan, it was the Muslim League. Blame can be spread around, but it cannot be equally distributed.
- India survived partition as a multi-religious secular republic (at least in theory, even if thepractice has frequently been at odds with the ideal), Pakistan was born on the basis of religion and therefore faced consistent pressure to align theory with practice and become an “Islamic Republic”, whatever that means.
- This idea that the Muslims of India constituted a separate nation, that for this reason, they must have a separate country, that this country will then have a special “Muslim” character distinct from secular India, was an incoherent and confused idea. At every step, it contradicted very deeply rooted realities and every effort to align real life with the imagined ideal dug the country into a deeper hole. For example, Muslims who might justifiably feel threatened by the Hindu majority were likely to live in Hindu majority areas, but by definition these areas would remain in India. What was to be the fate of this very large Muslim population and how would the creation of Pakistan benefit them? Was there to be an exchange of populations? What was the crime of the non-Muslim population of Muslim majority areas that were to become part of Pakistan? If all religions were expected to live in peace and harmony in both states, then why partition in the first place? And so on, the list of unanswered (and unanswerable) questions about partition as a practical matter is endless and cannot be covered in this article.
- At the same time, actually existing arrangements (ancient cultural strengths, the administrative machinery of the Raj, the constitutional arrangements of the government of India act 1935 suitably updated with modern parliamentary notions) continued to operate and were complemented by the import of modern capitalist notions, modern alliances and modern education, almost indistinguishable from similar trends and problems in other newly “free” postcolonial countries. Real life remained (and remains) broadly comparable to life in North India.Minus the foundational myths of partition and “Islamic nationalism”, Pakistan is just another third world country with arbitrary postcolonial borders and a rapacious and corrupt local elite that sells its services to great powers and plays them off against each other. Even the army behaved like many other third world armies, carrying out coups and using its power to suppress democracy and aggrandize itself. IF the foundational myths and Islamist notions had been only window-dressing, the matter would have been comparable to Ghana or Bolivia and similar opportunities, problems and solutions would be discussed. Local detail would naturally vary, but the broad outlines of the debate could have been transferred smoothly from Bolivia to Pakistan without expecting to hit a brick wall.
- But the ideas of Muslim separatism, of partition, of being “un-Indian”, of being the vanguard of the Islamic Ummah…those ideas are mostly window dressing, but they are not just window-dressing. They exert their own slow but steady pressure and any analysis that does not take them into account will run into unseen and unexpected brick walls.
In spite of half-hearted efforts to create a “retro-history”, the geographical boundaries of Pakistan have no historical basis that antedates partition. East and West Pakistan managed an uneasy (and semi-colonial) relationship for 24 years before that fell apart and Bangladesh went its own way. Muslims from North India who migrated to Pakistan at partition got to rule a virgin country for a few decades but with the rise of the Punjabi and Pakhtoon middle class, have now became a new aggrieved minoritywithin their new country. One response to this lack of common history has been to emphasize Islam as the unifying force of the country, but Islam is not a blank slate on which the Pakistani elite can write the script they need to rule their new country. When they use Islamism, Islamism can also use them. Jihadist militias created to project power to Afghanistan and Kashmir and beyond now want power in Pakistan and the elite has no vocabulary with which to argue with them. Even as social and economic changes are creating a modern country with aspirations (and problems) broadly similar to other “emerging nations”, problems embedded in its founding myths and supposed ideology act as powerful disruptors.
Thus to the final step in this argument: that Pakistan, whatever incoherent arguments and uncontrolled crises (and British manipulations) may be involved in its birth, is now a geographically contiguous country in which millions of small and large common interests hold the people together. IF it can de-emphasize its founding myths and so-called ideology, it can become a “normal” third world country with great potential and great practical problems. Problems to which its people will try to find solutions via arguments indistinguishable from the ones taking place in India or Bangladesh or even China and Thailand. Trying to create a new and unique template for nationhood is not an easy task for any intelligentsia; it is definitely beyond the abilities or historical resources of the Pakistani elite. One way or the other (one way being less painful than the other) the ruling elite in Pakistan will learn to ignore its “special” origin and mission and become “normal” in the mathematical sense of the word; i.e. closer to the regional and world norm. The alternative is chaos.
Left wing friends may argue that this discussion pays too much attention to superficial nonsense that is not the actual driver of history. Class struggle and dialectical materialism are driving history in Pakistan, just as they do in India or Bangladesh. To focus on fluff like the “two-nation theory” and the “ideology of Pakistan” is to fall into error. The real problems of Pakistan are the problems of poverty and inequality and this is just how the oppressive ruling elite try to distract people from their real struggle. To them, I would say, if the distraction is working, then the distraction has to be combatted.
Islamist friends are going to argue the opposite. That Islam IS unique and 99% of the people of Pakistan support it, so this elitist westoxicated nonsense is completely irrelevant to the struggle within Pakistan. That struggle is the struggle to replace existing colonial administrative structures, western political structures and Hindu cultural traditions with Islam. Once that is done, all problems will solve themselves. To them, I can only say, there is no there there. There is neither an Islamic system nor an Islamic national identity, ANYWHERE, much less in Pakistan.
Happy Independence Day, India and Pakistan. And congratulations Bangladesh, for having moved on…
Posted by omar at 08:54 AM | Permalink






















Comments
Partition was not anyone's preferred outcome. I think we have to remember that Jinnah accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946 which would have allowed autonomy for the Muslim-majority provinces within a united India. It was Congress that rejected this proposal, thus leading to Partition.
That said, Pakistan has to resolve the dilemmas and contradictions of its creation. Does it want to be a secular Muslim-majority nation in the same way that India is a secular Hindu-majority nation or does it want to be an Islamic state? It can't be somewhere in the middle.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 15, 2011 6:12:22 PM
If the demand for partition (a demand offically adopted by the Muslim League in 1940, well before the cabinet mission plan) was only a ploy, then it was a very bad ploy since the demand had a tendency to be self-fulfilling. In any case, what is the use of a ploy if you really dont want it? What if your bluff is called (as it supposedly was in this case)? Why pick a demand that you really DONT want?
And if he did want it, then we are back to the question of how this particular demand helped the Muslim minority in India in any way? As far as the Muslim majority provinces particularly Punjab and Sindh, Bengal may be somewhat different in details) are concerned, the situation was hardly one of Muslims being oppressed outsiders. There was a marked Hindu domination of commerce, but no equivalent domination of political power. Certainly not in Punjab or Sindh. Partition did provide a shortcut to getting rich for a set of people (loot and plunder and the takeover of evacuee property) but what would be the moral status of an argument that the way for Muslims to break into commerce in Punjab would be to kick out all the sikhs and hindus by force? I doubt if anyone would make such an argument. Yet, minus such an argument, how would partition help them any further when political power was already in their hands and likely to stay that way in these provinces? How would a Congress govt at the center impair the chances of Muslims in Punjab developing? With so many Muslims in the army and the police and with a majority in most districts of Punjab, what was the threat that was averted by partition? And of course we are not yet counting the losses suffered by Muslims from East Punjab in this process of liberation.
It was a dangerous bit of demagoguery that got out of hand...the 10% of North Indian Muslims who migrated to Karachi and Bengal got a jump up for one generation and those Punjabis and Sindhis who grabbed evacuee property got a leg up in life..the moral status of both "advances" has to be considered suspect. Everything else is posthoc justification.
Posted by: omar | Aug 15, 2011 6:42:42 PM
Omar, I think the issue was how to safeguard the rights of the minority once the British left. There was an (understandable?) fear that in a democratic setup, the Hindu majority would dominate politics. Jinnah and the League were trying to work out some arrangement by which the Muslim-majority provinces could have greater autonomy within a united India. Congress, on the other hand, wanted a highly centralized state. Since they couldn't reach a compromise, Partition happened. But up to one year before independence, Jinnah had accepted a solution that left "Pakistan" as part of India. The Pakistan resolution was vague, it never explicitly stated that Pakistan had to be an independent country. As for whether the demand for Pakistan was a ploy or not, Ayesha Jalal has discussed that at length in her book "The Sole Spokesman". It's also important to remember that for years, Jinnah was "the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity". I think that the "two nation theory" and Partition were outcomes that he was pushed into when it became clear that there was no way to resolve this conflict about whether India would be a loose federation or a highly centralized state. Anyway, the point is that the issues surrounding Partition are too complex to be summed up simply as Muslims wanting to get rich by kicking the Hindu commercial class out of Punjab.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 15, 2011 7:47:50 PM
Omar, here is a link to a post on The South Asian Idea called "On the Emergence of Pakistan". You may find it interesting.
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/on-the-emergence-of-pakistan/
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 15, 2011 8:05:53 PM
I did not sum it up as "muslims wanting to get rich by kicking hindus out of punjab". That happened, but it was not the plan.
I DID say that there was NO coherent plan. Of any kind. North Indian Muslim leaguers and Islamic revivalists managed to cross-fertilize and found a successful lawyer who was so focused on his brief that he could not see beyond it... the rest is history.
Posted by: omar | Aug 15, 2011 9:34:17 PM
What I found amazing is that even if that was a bluff, and it was too much for an egoist like Jinnah to say, "sorry, I didnt mean separation, lets talk about provincial autonomy" , why was post partition scenario not handled??
In 1923, there has been a precedent of an orderly population exchange http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
Posted by: Alam | Aug 15, 2011 10:11:37 PM
It was not properly handled primarily because the British were in a hurry to get out, but also because there is no concievable way ALL Indian Muslims could have been fitted into Pakistan. Besides, not all of them wanted to leave their homes just because Jinnah bhoy couldnt bring himself to say "I was bluffing". And again, who asked the Sikhs of Lyallpur if they wanted to be "exchanged"??
Posted by: omar | Aug 15, 2011 11:03:38 PM
Outside of Pakistan, Jinnah is viewed as a tragic Shakespearean character like Macbeth, whose overriding ambition and egotism had fatal consequences for a lot of people. But, the moving finger writes; and, having writ, moves on.. So happy Independence day!
Posted by: Sam | Aug 16, 2011 3:25:10 AM
broadcast on tv yesterday was the movie gandhi, with candice bergen and charlie sheen in bit roles. and then something call the mountbatten, the last viceroy of india with peter sellers as nehru, an inspired bit of casting if i ever saw one. the jinnah in this movie spoke with an italian accent, which was a bit hard to swallow.
i also finally finished joseph lelyveld's book on gandhi this weekend. one of its best bits is his reconstruction of gandhi's four months in nowkhali district of bangladesh, and the tenuous but enduring legacy left of those incomplete peregrinations in that country years later.
i think the point is we can go back into the past and envision new ways of living in our present and future. that this can make for a more interesting south asia for us to live in.
Posted by: aditya | Aug 16, 2011 5:48:01 AM
Jinnah was not an egoist. That is a myth that has been propagated by his detractors.
One has to explain what happened that the man who up until the 1920s had been "the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity" became the man behind the demand for Pakistan. There is a very good book called "Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity: Jinnah's Early Politics" by Ian Bryant Wells that tries to do just that by analyzing the development of Jinnah's relationship with India's Muslims from his entry into politics until 1934.
As for population exchange, I don't think anyone envisioned it occurring to the extent that it did. Certainly in Punjab, a lot of people weren't planning on moving until rioting began and trains began showing up with nothing but corpses on board.
Jinnah remained secular to the end, as exemplified in his August 11 speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. Pakistan today is not at all what Jinnah would have wanted.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 16, 2011 7:54:11 AM
"Lawyerly arguments" about partition (or any other "big" event in history) are endless. This sort of thing has its uses, but my point is not to reverse partition ...we are not going back to British India to start all over again.
And as far as blame goes, there are enough gray areas to provide work for an army of lawyers for an infinity of time. But I think we can all agree that the "hard" version of the two-nation theory is a recipe for endless religious conflict and is not compatible with modern fashions regarding nations, cultures and states. It will have to be dumped. The rest is details.
And, as a secondary objective, I am also trying to move the "Overton window" of Pakistani political discussion.
A million people died, millions more lost their homelands and moved (willingly or unwillingly, mostly unwillingly) to new places where others already happened to be living (Sindh comes to mind). To see it as a necessary evil or a price that had to be paid for progress would be a bit much. To see it as a tragedy makes more sense.
About Jinnah bhoy's "vision", the less said the better. See the hyperlinks in the article for more discussion about these issues (arguments tend to be based on who one is arguing WITH, so kindly keep that in mind when reading through the exchanges on "brownpundits").
Posted by: omar | Aug 16, 2011 11:03:12 AM
Omar, I absolutely agree with you that Partition was a massive human tragedy. I simply think that we need to examine the reasons why this less-than-stellar outcome happened rather than rushing to blame any party (I'm not saying you are doing that). All parties involved made mistakes, but let's also remember that Jinnah accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan, which would have avoided Partition. Nehru is the one who rejected this, and after that one last shot at compromise, there was no other option than Partition.
Pakistan needs to decide what kind of a country it wants to be. In my opinion, the best decision would be to go back to Jinnah's vision for the country-- A secular state that happens to be Muslim-majority (It's a different matter, that after adopting the TNT, whether willingly or unwillingly, Jinnah should have understood that the religious genie was out of the bottle and it was going to be difficult to put it back).
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 16, 2011 12:20:59 PM
I congratulate Omar on a well-written article. We aren't going back to a unified India on the subcontinent, so what remains is to make the best of a bad situation. The more secular and human-rights respecting Pakistan can become, the better for everyone.
Posted by: Hektor Bim | Aug 16, 2011 12:28:31 PM
Excellent piece Omar.
Kabir, you make an important point about 'whether willingly or unwillingly, Jinnah should have understood that the religious genie was out of the bottle and it was going to be difficult to put it back'. And here I would point to the biggest question on leadership: can any leader [in a democratic context] lead his people to anywhere other than where their aggregate passions lead him to lead them?
There! I've said it clearly enough!
:)
Posted by: Vivek Tandon | Aug 16, 2011 4:58:34 PM
I am no fan of Nehru or Gandhi, but I can't imagine either man co-opting communal violence as a means to achieve their goals like Jinnah did with his call for Direct Action Day.
Time.com has resorted to tweeting historical reports, which I have misgivings about. But if it successfully captures today's youth with their short attention span, more power to it:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,933559,00.html
Jinnah's claim to being secular falters in light of his vociferous support for Ilm-ud-din who murdered a Hindu accused of blasphemy. His professed notion of being secular in Pakistan was similar to each succeeding military dictatorship's notion of democracy; do your own thing just as long as you never forget who's actually in charge. In reality this convoluted position was untenable for minorities and for democracy in Pakistan.
Posted by: Sam | Aug 16, 2011 5:48:23 PM
Sam,
Gandhiji was the first person to bring religion into the Indian freedom movement with his support for the Khilafat movement. Jinnah was in fact strongly against this movement and warned Gandhi about the dangers of mixing religion with politics (pg. 104 of Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity by Wells). When Gandhiji called off his non-cooperation movement because it led to communal violence, Motilal and Jawaharlal Nehru both condemned this(from jail) as they didn't think the movement needed to be called off because of a little violence (Wells 125)
So, let's not get on a high horse about how Jinnah co-opted communal violence while no one else did. This was unfortunately part of the politics of that time.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 16, 2011 6:53:58 PM
Kabir, its disappointing that you see no difference between the two uses of religion. When did Gandhi ever try to use communal violence as a tool in politics? He did insert religion into politics, but always with an ideology (misguided or simple-minded, but certainly not violent) that tried to appeal to all religions, not just HIS religion. This bears no comparison to Jinnah's demand for a separate Muslim state or his use of direct action day.
Jinnah bhoy was not a religious fanatic. He seems to have had no serious religious beliefs (or any other serious philosophical issues of any kind...can anyone name what books Jinnah liked, what philosophers he admired?), but he was willing to use religion to divide people, which is not what Gandhi seems to have tried to do all his life...Gandhi's faults are many, but encouraging violent religious bigotry was not one of them..
Posted by: omar | Aug 16, 2011 7:43:18 PM
Omar,
I think religion was not the main issue that led to Partition. It was the question of safeguards for minority rights (in this case, the minority happened to be a religious minority).
Once again, I must recommend the book "Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity: Jinnah's Early Politics. It explains very clearly the developments that led Jinnah to change his positions and drove him further and further from Congress.
http://www.amazon.com/Jinnah-Hindu-Muslim-Ian-Bryant-Wells/dp/1905422091
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I am not comfortable demonizing Jinnah or indeed any of the other leaders of the freedom movement. Indeed, even Indian authors such as Jaswant Singh have re-examined Jinnah's role in Partition and found it not to be as clearcut as traditional Indian history makes it out to be.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 16, 2011 8:14:05 PM
I am not "demonizing" Jinnah. I am saying he was a short-sighted lawyer with very limited imagination. In good times, that hardly matters. He would have made a good prime minister in England in the 1880s. But his campaign for Pakistan had serious consequences and he cannot be spared blame just because he was once knows as "the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity".
He was not solely responsible for partition. Partition had many fathers. Hindu as well as Muslim (and need I add, British...see Wali Khan's book "facts are sacred"). One can argue that some sort of Hindu-Muslim conflict was even inevitable. IF he had not been there, maybe something worse would have happened. Or maybe not. We can never know. What we DO know is that there was a 7 year campaign of religious separatism (not "minority rights, the demand was Pakistan, minority rights may have been in his mind, but he and his friends launched a campaign for partition, not for "minority rights"..if it was a tactic, as Ayesha Jalal has claimed, that does not excuse him...it was a bad tactic). The campaign led eventually to Pakistan. Where that led is in front of you. Again, he is not solely to blame. He did not know how it would turn out (he certainly did not know that one day even his shia brethren will discover "what lies beneath"...something the Ahmedis found out much sooner..the fact that Sir Zafrullah was an Ahmedi only makes the lesson a little harsher)..his lack of foresight was impressive. Check out all the books written about the detailed planning he did for how Pakistan would be run, what its nature would be, now various obvious issues would be handled, while he was "struggling for Pakistan".
Incidentally, if he was not so widely over-rated, he would not need to be cut down to size.
Posted by: omar | Aug 16, 2011 9:38:57 PM
I must add that the discussion in comments (like most such discussions) got hijacked a bit into discussing Jinnahbhoy...That was not my primary point. Partition happened, he had a big role in it. I think it was a bad idea and he must share a lot of the blame for taking it up and running with it, but the point is that if we stop pushing further in the same direction, life will go on..sticking to the worst possible formulation of its mythology is what is dangerous for Pakistan (and not just Pakistan; and yes, I know that obsession with the Hindu-Muslim divide may be only a little less in India than it is in Pakistan, but it is differently refracted, the "us" position for many people (not all, obviously Praveen Togadia and Modi would not be in this group) is more inclusive, and the more extreme forms of hindu nationalism and victimhood discourse are not the officially stated basis for the Indian state; the constitution and the officially sanctioned story of India are relatively enlightened)
Posted by: omar | Aug 17, 2011 9:45:17 AM
I call your Togadia and Modi and raise you a Zaid Hamid and Hafiz Saeed. :-)
Posted by: Sam | Aug 17, 2011 11:22:50 AM
Omar,
I agree with you that Partition happened (for whatever reason) and since we can't undo it, we should just move on.
From my experience of spending time in Pakistan, I don't think most people nowadays are worried too much about Partition or the TNT. Pakistanis still have issues of contention with India, Kashmir chief among them (and I suppose the TNT comes in here if the rationale for Kashmir becoming independent or part of Pak is that it is Muslim-majority). I think that if our government continues to have talks with India and gradually the issues are resolved, than Pak-India relations will normalize.
On the internal "identity" of the country, we have to decide what we want our country to be like. Here's where Jinnah becomes important because (like it or not) he is seen as the father of the nation, and his vision becomes important. It will be much easier to lead the country in a secular direction if Jinnah can be rescued from the Islamists.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 17, 2011 12:37:51 PM
I think its worse in Pakistan in terms of official patronage of the hate theories involved on that side, But if I let loose my lawyer side, I could still start other arguments....
Btw, neither Zaid Hamid not Hafiz Saeed are good counterparts for Modi (they would work for Togadia). There is no exact counterpart to Modi in Pakistan because beating up on a minority that can also be projected as a serious threat is not a useful tool in any chief ministers arsenal anymore (Large enough religious minorities are not available to serve that function anymore).
Posted by: omar | Aug 17, 2011 12:41:38 PM
Omar, I must have missed the news bulletin when Modi sent armed terrorists into Karachi who then held the city in siege and randomly slaughtered civilians. (Although in this regard Karachi'ites seem to be doing quite well by themselves)
I would also think that Shias and Ahmaddiyas constitute a large enough religious minority, but what do I know. You are correct, however, in that there is no exact counterpart to Modi in Pakistan; its economy wouldn't be in such shambles if there were.
Posted by: Sam | Aug 17, 2011 2:45:19 PM
Sam, no need to be touchy. My point was much simpler. Its not that Hafiz Saeed is a smaller terrorist than Modi or that Modi is a bigger criminal than X. It was just that Modi is the elected chief minister of a large state and felt it necessary to do what he did...no Pakistani chief minister is in that position because the dynamics are not same in any Pakistani province...Shahbaz Sharif does not go around speaking about the Shia threat to Punjab...its not a moral point at all. Maybe some Pakistani chief minister would do much much worse if he had a large Hindu minority to demonize...they took care of that in 1947, so the opportunities for slaughtering a minority are more limited. Again, it was not a moral point at all. Just a description of the situation. LET and Pak army sending terrorists into India has no exact counterpart on teh Indian side either....the pathologies on each side are not the same. And not necessarily equivalent. And sometimes someone in India does get to do some evil thing that his counterpart in Pakistan just doesnt have the opportunity to do any more. Thats not moral superiority, just a different situation.
Posted by: omar | Aug 17, 2011 7:58:40 PM
Yikes, Omar. Bangladesh didn't quite "escape" the 14th/15th August Midnight angst of the subcontinent despite its new incarnation from the east wing of Pakistan to a sovereign nation. Sheikh Mujibur Rehman was assassinated on the 15th of August, 1975. Either it was pure coincidence or the assassins had an ironic sense of history. The current Bangladeshi prime minister and Mujibur's daughter Sheikh Hasina's Independence Day message to her Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh was pretty much a protracted eulogy to her father.
I just came back from Kashmir where the Valley is virtually cleansed of Kashmiri Hindus although most of the tourists there now are Indian non-Muslims who spend their money freely. There are some very interesting dynamics at work in Kashmir nowadays. Pakistan may be surprised although Pakistani PM Gilani in his own message to the nation on the 14th reiterated Pakistan's moral obligation to "free" Kashmir. He should note that some Kashmiris (not all, by any means) still want independence but not many are looking at either Gilani (Yusuf Raza or Syed Ali Shah) for their deliverance.
I will comment further on this matter at Accidental Blogger where you have cross posted the article, once I get over my jet lag.
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 18, 2011 12:37:35 AM
Omar,
I have rarely come across such clear and crisp disclosure in the context of India and Pakistan. I hope there will be more like you to bring some sanity into a thoroughly muddled past.
In my view, you have gone to the root than anybody from Pakistan. Maybe you went all the way, I will know in subsequent posts, but here is one view. The root probably is in a narrative that though CMP was mandatory.
Kabir,
You seem to imply that it is Congress’s fault for not accepting the Cabinet Mission Plan. You sound like rejection of CMP was a bad thing. What if the mindset that desired a Cabinet Mission Plan was wrong for India as a nation?
If muslim-rule or political parity of minority and majority religions were important, then I daresay partition was the best outcome. And that Jinnah got exactly what he asked for (maybe not be what he wanted or wished for). I know many would like to think that Jinnah’s speech is proof of his secularism, but his actions or his choices are in sadly in contrast.
Pakistan's struggles with fundamentalism are the proof that Congress was correct. If the Muslim-rule and related experiments were so important for the League, then it is better it happened in the borders of Pakistan, than in every corner of India.
But, let’s take a few steps back. Why should Muslim-majority states get parity at the center? If one were to accept that as necessity, why not ask for same parity for Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis or Christians. Why is Muslim-league so special? What makes it so paranoid about so called "Hindu rule" that other minorities don't give a hoot about? I know, you are probably thinking Gujarat, but sadly, it started with massacre of one community and tables turned later. As far as I care, it was loss of Indians on both sides, and was completely avoidable. There were Sikh riots 30 years ago, but we have a Sikh prime minister for two terms now.
The Question for you is really this, is “Muslim rule” that important? What is it that other minorities like Sikh and Parsis lost in India (under so called “Hindu rule” if you must) that Muslims gained in Pakistan? Consider the number of Muslims who died in Pakistan at hands of other Muslims in 64 years, whether it is east or west Pakistan. There are few rivals in the world to that statistic.
Can you ever imagine a Hindu Prime Minister for 2 years? We know the answer from history, if West Pakistan could not accept a Muslim PM from East Pakistan, where does that leave us. But, until one explores that possibility and comes back with a “Yes, Pakistan’s problems will remain.
But is that answer going change in future? But as Omar pointed out, that would be in conflict with the fundamental ideology. So about the ideology..
Is it really the fear of "Hindu rule" or “Sikh rule”? Or
Is it Muslim League's obsession with "muslim rule" and "staying in control"?
Is that indicative of Islamic thought or just feudal protectionism?
What if it wasn’t that important?
What if getting a good life and future for their kids was more important thing than political parity of religions? What if?
Hard questions, but if Pakistan wants to resolve the discord, then it needs to get to the bottom of the ideology.
And it is not about undoing partition or some crazy conspiracy btw.. I hope you resolve this for the sake of everybody!
Posted by: kal | Aug 18, 2011 12:42:47 AM
A Supreme Court-appointed Special Investigation Team cleared Modi of the charge that you insinuated. The Indian SC hasn't exactly been friendly to Modi, so there is no comparison to how the Pakistani courts genuflect to the likes of Saeed. While there isn't much of a Hindu minority to terrorize anymore in Pakistan, Niemöller's famous statement certainly still appears to be operative. Only now they come for the Shia and the Ahmaddis and so on down the line. And these attackers do seem to have support from the higher ups. I don't know enough about Pakistani CMs or how they go about speaking in public, but actions speak louder than words. It is suspicious, for example, that right after an ethnic party breaks away from the ruling coalition horrendous violence erupts in their stronghold in Karachi. But we have digressed far enough from the topic (or paradoxically because it is right on topic), so let's agree to disagree about our mutual perceptions.
Posted by: Sam | Aug 18, 2011 1:22:21 AM
Kal:
I did not say it was Congress's "fault" for not accepting the CMP. At the same time, it is true that the CMP was the last possible compromise before Jinnah said "Ok, fine, we have no choice but independence."
The issues of the time were all political, not religious. Any objective history of the era will tell you that the discussions from 1916 (Lucknow Pact) all had to do with Hindu-Muslim compromise: how to protect minority rights in Muslim-minority provinces, whether India would have a federal structure, or be a highly centralized state. It was lack of agreement on these issues that led eventually to Partition.
As for why Muslims should have parity and not other minorities, I can only speculate. But I think that Muslims were the largest minority and so they were the most worried about "Hindu Raj". Sikhs normally allied with Hindus on most issues (at least at the time).
Jinnah was secular. The issues for him were political, not religious in nature. Yes, he eventually got frustrated with Congress and focused his political activities on the Muslim League. As such, he then had to respond to the issues raised by the Muslim community, and adjust some of his previously held positions (It may interest you that when they originally came up for discussion, Jinnah had rejected separate electorates).
As for Pakistan's struggles with fundamentalism, it's easy to look back and think that this now retroactively justifies Partition. However, that's not how history works. If Partition had not happened, it is quite possible that the trajectory of what is now Pakistan would have been quite different. Also if Jinnah had lived longer than 1948 and had had the opportunity to mold the nation to his vision. Unfortunately, those are all "what-ifs" now.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 7:51:32 AM
Sam, you are missing my point. Its not about claiming that India is as bad as Pakistan and which country has the bigger dick. It was a much smaller point, but its lost by now. So lets drop it.
Kabir, you need to step back and think "what would happen if there was no guarantees for "communities", only for individuals? This is not to deny very real prejudices between many Hindus and many Muslims. But you could move towards less division or more division.
It does depend on your view of what is possible. We can disagree about that. But the direction from the demand for Pakistan was towards more division, not less. Hold that thought for a while, then we will take if further...got to run.
Posted by: omar | Aug 18, 2011 10:03:04 AM
Omar,
Of course it would have been preferable if guarantees had been for individuals and not communities. But all the political discussions of that era were communitarian in nature. This situation had existed ever since the British introduced separate electorates and politics became a numbers game: How many seats for Muslims, how many for Hindus, etc?
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 12:44:09 PM
Was referring to these quotes of Kabir.
Quote : "It was Congress that rejected this proposal, thus leading to Partition. "
Quote : "Jinnah accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan, which would have avoided Partition. Nehru is the one who rejected this"
To your response..
"All Political and not religious" - I have to disagree. It is likely a dangerous mix of politics and religion. The spectrum was Muslim League (politics+religion) - Congress (politics) - RSS (politics + religion).
If it was between RSS and Muslim League, maybe it was appls and apples. We know how much traction RSS had in the formation of India. With RSS and its thought sidelined, it was a struggle between apples and oranges. One using a potent mixture (ML) and other stuck in ideals (Congress).
On protection of Muslim minorities. I agree size is one factor, but one has to dig deep into the insecurity or obsession (whatever you want to call it) of the largest minority (whether it be feudals or religious leaders or commmon folks) to be able to truly face the demons.
Why were Sikhs more allied with Hindus? Is that same for christians? Or Muslims from South India who were sizable in numbers?
On Jinnah's frustration with Congress and issues raised by muslim community. We see that in India even today. Allow me to use a crude example :). There is a trend in power circles that might interest you as a topic. When a leader from minority (religion/community/region, put whatever you want) has no scope for heading the diverse government, the best way out is to carve your own independant state. There are some instances where a minority leader earned the leadership role and led the states. But others were unsuccessful and were left with separation agitation (Pakistan is witnessing the same). As an academic exercise, would be interested in your view on how Muslim League's or Jinnah's quarrels with Congress are similar or different (leaving the right or wrong of it!).
When he listend to muslim community.. was he listening to feudals or religious leaders or common folks or common folks influenced by the first two groups? We have to appreciate that it is not one monlithic unit.
On current state: Use of Lashkars in 1947 (Kashmir) few months after independence was happening under Jinnah's leadership. The point I am trying to make is not the "snatch or liberate" Kashmir, it is the use of irregular army instead of the main army and that it was resorted by those under Jinnah when he was well in control. I am sure you can agree that the ideology set in motion in 1947 (use of non-state actors) is hurting Pakistan like never before, while the elites and Army have made boat load of money using that ideology.
But for sake of argument, lets assume Jinnah, as an individual, opposed each and every one of these pulls but failed. There is something to be said about those who you surround yourself with.
Leaders like all humans are mortals, so who will be filling in their shoes is a big part of the equation. On two fronts, ideology and friends, Pakistan trajectory has been set.
If one considers the argument that Jinnah was used by the feudals and zeolots, it is safe to say he ran out of utility after aug 14th. Had Jinnah lived longer, it would have taken the trajectory longer, but the trajectory he set the country in, was opposite to the trajectory the Congress set for India.
Some say, it is hindsight. Others say they are vindicated.
No matter which one it is, understanding the ideology and friends is vital. One can choose to stay course or change course, that is a different question.
Posted by: kal | Aug 18, 2011 12:46:26 PM
Kal:
I think you are not understanding what I was trying to say. The issue of that time were all political. The whole disagreement was about what the structure of an independent India would be like: would it be a highly centralized state or a federal state?
Muslim league was not "politics+ religion" while Congress was just "politics". Yes, the Muslim League was a party that was set up to represent Muslim interests, but Congress, while ostensibly being a secular party, was Hindu-dominated. After decades of trying to work within Congress, Jinnah finally gave up and devoted his energies to the ML. Any objective history will tell you that throughout the 1920s, Jinnah was the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity, not at all a communalist. The interesting question to me is: What changed in those last 20+ years?
Also, I think that it is too easy to judge any of these leaders looking backwards. What we are forgetting is that at the time of all these discussions, the current Indian Constitution had not been written and it was not at all clear what kind of a political structure India would have after independence. Perhaps in this context, the fear that British Raj would be replaced by Hindu Raj makes more sense?
As to your point about Kashmir, there is some debate about how much Jinnah actually knew of what was happening. Let's remember he was dying of TB at the time.
Anyway, this is all academic now. Things have obviously taken their course over the past 64 years and we would be better off looking forwards and not backwards.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 3:22:07 PM
Jinnah bhoy's problems included his lack of connection with any place. He was not a Sindhi or a Punjabi or a Bengali, he was a British Sahib and a "Muslim" leader (whose own interest in Islam as a personal religion was close to zero). Thats not the whole story, but its part of the story.
Anyway, the crucial problem with partition it was not a good idea for the very people who were its most vocal supporters. The idea was that the Muslim minority was not going to get a "fair deal" in Hindu majority India. Where was this idea most popular? naturally in the places where Muslims were already a minority...and among North Indian feudals whose power and privilege was unlikely to survive unscathed in a democracy and whose view of themselves was still stuck in the Delhi Sultanate. How did partition help this group achieve their aims? Well, it helped if you are only interested in the individuals, many of whom became big shots in Pakistan, e.g. Liaqat Ali Khan became prime minister of an actual country..a prize that may have been beyond his reach in United India. But it is hard to see how their "solution" helped the great mass of Indian Muslims who live in Hindu majority areas? Those left behind face more hostility than anything pre-partition. Those who moved are again aliens in Karachi. A good number have moved on to Toronto, but was that the aim of partition?
Muslims in Muslim majority provinces had no realistic fear of "Hindu domination". Their middle class gained materially from the flight of Hindus and Siksh, but that is hardly a good and moral justification for partition.
(its used so frequently that I brought it up even though Kabir had NOT brought it up at the start of this thread).
An old relative of ours was dying and mumbling incoherently. When my father got close, he said to him "Nadir Ali, agli vari beyraja peya tey chuDna nahin..". (Nadir Ali, next time anarchy comes,dont miss out..). He was a poor man and apparently to his dying day his main regret was that when anarchy arose in 1947, several people around us became rich overnight (including later leading politician Zahur Elahi, still one of the richest families in Pakistan), mostly by grabbing what the Hindus and Sikhs left behind (frequently by killing the owners if they were reluctant to get moving), sometimes by arranging safe passage in exchange for rewards. So yes, lots of people gained too, but its hard to claim THAT was the desired end.
The issue of why non-muslims in Punjab and Sindh had to move to accommodate the fears (frequently exaggerated and unrealistic) of the Muslim elite is not even touched upon..
That train has left the station, I know that. But there are other disasters ahead if we dont stop the train even now. The logic of partition distorts political discourse in pakistan and provides the crucial edge that allows the army to maintain its grip, that allows the Islamist minority to grow in strength, that promotes irrational economic and cultural policies of "de-indianization" and that now targets new minorities for purification. Having said that, i am fully in agreement with Dr Manzur Ejaz, who argues that the ruling elite will itself stop the train one day because its getting out of control and even they can see it may jump the rails one day. I am just trying to help them apply the brakes. They can accuse me of being too extreme and take less extreme positions that still stop the train.
At least, thats my story and I am sticking to it for now..
Posted by: omar | Aug 18, 2011 3:33:40 PM
and among North Indian feudals whose power and privilege was unlikely to survive unscathed in a democracy and whose view of themselves was still stuck in the Delhi Sultanate.
There may be more truth in this than just sarcasm. As long as the British were oppressing all classes of Indians, it was okay. But rightly or wrongly, their departure spelt trouble for some who foresaw a diminution of their status - Anglo Indians, Baghdadi Jews and Muslims from U.P., Delhi and Bihar. Most of them left. Everybody else was okay with the horrors of a possible "Hindu Raj."
As for "left behinds" Omar, please note that the peasants could not move and the middle class who remained, did not want to move. My niece went on a tour of Pakistan a few years ago with her college classmates. During a meeting with students in a college, the Pakistani professor said something about Muslims who were "left behind" in India. My niece's teacher who was chaperoning the group was an Indian Muslim. She got up and said, "Please don't feel guilty for our plight. We were not left behind by anyone; we chose to stay on."
It is interesting that M.C. Chagla, Jinna's fan and protege, stayed on in India. He was not convinced of his mentor's political vision.
Let me also ask an uncomfortable question. Why is Indian Kashmir virtually free of Kashmiri Pandits? There was never any fear of a "Hindu Raj" there.
Also, I tend to agree with most of what Kal has said.
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 18, 2011 4:59:08 PM
I think it would be fair to say that one reason why Partition occurred was that the major Indian nationalist leaders did not like or trust each other. Jinnah disliked Gandhi's methods of non-cooperation and preferred to work constitutionally. Nehru disliked Jinnah, and I guess Jinnah disliked him back. As much as we like to think that larger issues and disagreements led to Partition, a lot of it had to do with the psychologies and personalities of the major figures.
Also, I don't think anyone in Pakistan, except the army and the religious right, still cares about the two nation theory. Most people are concerned with the current, more concrete problems faced by the nation. As long as talks continue with India and issues such as Kashmir are resolved, relations will normalize.
Discussions about the logic of Partition and the developments that led up to that outcome are academic and only concern those of us who are interested in history.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 5:11:08 PM
Kabir:
What resolution in Kashmir would please and placate Pakistan? Are you aware that most Kashmiris now, even the separatists, want to have nothing to do with Pakistan? Most Kashmiri businessmen who have traveled around India, wish to stay with India even if it is in a loose federation. The rich Kashmiris almost all, have a second home in Delhi or in London. They leave when trouble starts. Those who feel that India has betrayed and oppressed them, want to be independent of both India and Pakistan and their dreams include the liberation of Pak Occupied Kashmir (as it is called in India) or Azad Kashmir (as Pakistanis call the region). They are also acutely aware that their own economic plight is far superior to that of their cousins across the border.
There is also a large number of Buddhists in the Ladakh region and Hindus in Jammu who would stay on in India. And what about Kashmiri Pandits who were a very large minority in Kashmir? Can they go back to their abandoned homes? If not, why not?
So please tell me what resolution in Kashmir will be acceptable to Pakistan?
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 18, 2011 5:40:59 PM
Kabir, your view that "nobody in Pakistan cares about partition" is not correct. MOST people definitely do not go around thinking about partition (I am sure they don't in India either). But the army maintains its position with the help of an endless stream of propaganda related to the two nation theory (see paknationalists.com or rupeenews.com for details) and the right wing parties that the army uses as its proxies do the same. In addition, the reluctance of the army to cut off support to the "good jihadis" (a reluctance that has had very real consequences WITHIN Pakistan and abroad) has a lot to do with this propaganda and will not be easily challenged while this background noise is available to drown out any challenge to its pet theories about strategic depth and other bullshit. Normalization of trade and cultural relations is also held hostage to this theory.
See http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Lahore/17-Aug-2011/Nawaz-shattered-TwoNation-Theory-through-rhetoric
and
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?76329-Zaid-Hamid-furious-over-Nawaz-Sharif-s-statement-on-Two-Nations-Theory
and many more links you can easily find. Its a live issue and has live consequences.
I agree that it is a FALSE issue. But false or not, its uses are very real.
Of course, the fact that Nawaz Sharif said what he said is a sign that a good section of the ruling elite wants to move on....but they wont be allowed to move on that easily, so the issue will not go away quite yet.
Posted by: omar | Aug 18, 2011 5:46:10 PM
Ruchira,
I'm not going to be perscriptive about how the Kashmir conflict should be resolved. There are many possible solutions. The LOC, which is de facto the international border could be legally made the international border. Kashmir could become independent. Or some sort of autonomy could be worked out while the respective pieces are still technically parts of whichever country controls them at the moment. All I'm saying is that a solution needs to be worked out that is acceptable to India, Pakistan and most importantly to the Kashmiri people.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 6:17:11 PM
Dear Ruchira,
You say, "Let me also ask an uncomfortable question. Why is Indian Kashmir virtually free of Kashmiri Pandits? There was never any fear of a "Hindu Raj" there. "
The question of the Pandit exodus from Kashmir is very pertinent when we talk about partition itself, Kashmir being the still raw wound that the wedge of the Two-Nation Theory drew into the subcontinent. The Hindu-Muslim riots during the partition did not affect the relationship between Pandits and Muslims within the valley (there were riots and displacements in Jammu), but in 89-90, the eruption of anti-Indian armed militancy in Kashmir saw the Pandits as collaborators of the Indian State and targeted them for this association. Asking why the Pandit exodus happened is important, and asking it to the majority among whom they lived is only fair. However, in Kashmir the history of Pandits and Muslims is very different from the rest of the subcontinent. Pandits for the most part were an elite minority who had it better under the Dogra Maharaja and the Muslims for the most part were suppressed and oppressed by a Hindu monarchy, whose "natural" collaborators the Pandits were. Not that this justifies "the historical revenge" of the oppressed, but one has to learn and be aware of the historical baggage that Kashmir came with, to ask this question. May I suggest two books, "Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir" by Mridu Rai and "Languages of Belonging: Islam, Regional Identity, and the Making of Kashmir " by Chitrlekha Zutshi both students of Ayesha Jalal that put the situation in the historical context it needs to be seen in.
The question of the Pandit exodus is a very controversial and much-talked about issue in Kashmiri circles these days, especially since there is a new wave among the Kashmiri separatists to see and present themselves as "secular". There is much debate and acrimony, and also a clamour for some kind of "reconciliation" among Kashmiris. As an example, here is an article on the now much-talked about "Pandit question" in Kashmiri circles that caused much debate and acrimony in Kashmir centric groups on facebook, where Kashmiris across the divide are debating and conversing with each other.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/spotlight/kashmirtheforgottenconflict/2011/07/2011724204546645823.html
Posted by: D | Aug 18, 2011 8:30:30 PM
"There are many possible solutions."
All of which are applicable to Pakistan's Baloch and NWF provinces. Why don't you show us slow-minded folks the way?
Posted by: Sam | Aug 18, 2011 8:35:21 PM
D: I am aware of the historical relations and the power differential between Kashmiri Hindus and Muslims. (That was the case in east Bengal also) But as you point out, that is not a good enough reason for ethnic cleansing, especially after the Dogra King was gone and the majority population and the politicians in power were Muslims. The eviction of Kashmiri Pandits amounted to reprisal for past domination. This is never an acceptable situation in modern times.
During my very recent visit to Kashmir, you would be surprised by how many Kashmiri Muslims, mostly the educated and relatively prosperous ones, lamented the exodus of the Pandits, their erstwhile neighbors. One of the most heartfelt statement was made by a forest officer, an avid supporter of staying with India for the "future" of Kashmiri youngsters. He said to me, "Jab Pandit log chaley gaye, un ke saath taalim ka tradition bhi chala gaya. Hamare bacche padhna nahin chahte." (When the Pandits left, the love of learning left with them. Our children are no longer interested in education)
My question about the Pandits is rhetorical - whether majority groups anywhere can or should be able to drive out a minority population from their homes under any consideration, political, historical or religious. It doesn't happen often anywhere else in India. And despite India's recent heavy-handedness in Kashmir, it has never tried to tilt the religious balance in Kashmir by settling other Indians like Punjabis, Bengalis or Tamils in Kashmir. It could have done that but didn't. The Pandits on the other hand have probably left forever, ensuring that the local citizenry in the Kashmir valley will be overwhelmingly Muslim and therefore always seen as a minority state oppressed by a "Hindu Raj."
By the way, our Kashmiri driver who fed me my very first Iftar meal with his family in his houseboat, was a separatist. He was very candid with me and my husband about the events of the last twenty years. He wants nothing to do with Pakistan. He admitted that India pumps in large sums of money into Kashmir which he claims goes into the pockets of local politicians. I can't vouch for any of this. I asked him that if India packed its bags and withdrew its army, economic support, trade and tourism, to whom would Kashmir turn now since Pakistan is no longer an attractive partner. He turned to me and said, "Madam, do you think China would help?" I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 18, 2011 9:22:54 PM
Sam,
You can't compare the Kashmir and Balochistan or NWFP situations. Neither Balochistan nor the NWFP are disputed territory-- they are provinces of Pakistan. Kashmir, on the other hand, is a disputed territory and has been subject to international dispute since 1947. Hence, there is a "line of control" and not a border. As a longstanding international dispute, it definitely needs to be resolved.
I almost can't believe you are seriously making that comparison, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 18, 2011 10:11:53 PM
Dear Ruchira,
I am a Kashmiri myself, someone who grew up in the conflict, and agree with many of your observations about Kashmir. However I disagree with your assertion about such things not happening "often enough" elsewhere in India. How often is often enough? What about Gujrat, Orissa? However, I think the question you ask is really at the heart of the matter,"...whether majority groups anywhere can or should be able to drive out a minority population from their homes under any consideration, political, historical or religious." And I would like to qualify it with even if they, in their view, are fighting a State or a political position that the minority is sympathetic to.
If you like "quantifiables" then the recent Chatham House poll or the older Ipsos-Mori poll will tell you that most people in the valley want independence from both India and Pakistan and it is an emotion whose popularity, I as a Kashmiri can testify to.
http://www.chathamhouse.org/media/news/view/172223
The question is what sense do we make of this? How did we get here? How much of this is India's fault? What about the Pandits? Is Kashmir lost to them? What does this permanent homogeneity mean for the Kashmiri society? As a Kashmiri I feel we suffer from what Arvind Gigoo, a Kashmiri writer calls, a "political and societal schizophrenia and civilizational dementia"---something that India, Pakistan with their notion of rigid nationalities and the consequent notion of a Kashmiri sub-nationality all have brought about. Kashmir is a failure of the unimaginative idea of nationalism in India and Pakistan, and why just Kashmir, for very different reasons the North-east as well. If in India we had listened to Tagore, we would have had hope.
Here's where Arvind Gigoo's words are from:
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2010-April/024556.html
Best!
Posted by: D | Aug 18, 2011 10:48:32 PM
D: Thanks for the links. It is tragic indeed - the Pandit diaspora and the trap the Muslim Kashmiris find themselves in. I get the impression that the disparate economic and political trajectories that India and Pakistan are currently on, has not escaped the notice of the average Kashmiri. Hence the dilemma. If Kashmiris were to choose now with their heads, they would swallow the bitter pill and side with staying with India and share in whatever incremental progress that the rest of India is enjoying. (The tourism revenue in Kashmir is generated nowadays overwhelmingly from Indians traveling there. Western tourists are few and far between.) But if voting with their heart and pride, specially given India's high handedness and meddling in the last two decades, Kashmiris will opt for independence. The question remains however that in the latter scenario, exactly how many hours will pass before Pakistani extremists march into the valley a la 1948? I think that is the bee in India's bonnet and not any national pride as espoused by the chest thumping Hindu right ignoramuses.
I also should note that never have I been asked about my religious affiliation ("Hindu or Christian?" was the query) repeatedly by complete strangers as I was in Kashmir. The interrogation was not rude, just strangely personal. Except for a curiously hostile encounter in front of Roza Bal where some young thugs threatened to beat up our driver for bringing "foreigners" to a Kashmiri holy site, our experience in Kashmir was unfailingly pleasant and hospitable.
I am a Bengali and very familiar with Tagore. NOBODY listens to his message anymore, Jana Gana Mana.. notwithstanding.
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 19, 2011 12:44:02 AM
Kabir, I was being facetious but your answer was entirely predictable. Perhaps you will be genuinely surprised to hear that the Afghans have never accepted the Durand line or that the Balochs have been fighting a bloody war of secession for almost as long as Pakistan existed. I'll return the favour and give you the benefit of the doubt, because it can't be that what is sauce for the Pakistani goose is not sauce for the Indian gander.
Posted by: Sam | Aug 19, 2011 12:46:55 AM
Sam,
I am well aware that the Durand Line is an issue of contention--that needs to be sorted out between Pakistan and Afghanistan. I am also aware that there are Baloch nationalists who want independence from Pakistan. That however is an internal issue, there is no third country involved. The Pakistani state should address the grievances of the Baloch and come to some compromise with them.
The Baloch case is analogous to the independence movements in Nagaland or Assam, not to Kashmir. Kashmir is very clearly an international dispute, so much so that the UN has gotten involved. As an international dispute, it needs to be solved diplomatically.
I will not be perscriptive about the solution. I would even accept the status quo being formalized. India could keep Jammu and Kashmir and Pakistan could keep Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The LOC would become the international border.
There is however, no possibility of Pakistan saying "We have been occupying your territory--take Azad Kashmir" or of India saying "We have been occupying your territory--take the Valley". Not going to happen.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 19, 2011 8:55:54 AM
"As an international dispute, it needs to be solved diplomatically."
Just the small and inconvenient detail of the Shimla Agreement. But no matter. When have rules of conduct and legal niceties ever stood in Pakistan's way (as the Americans are belatedly learning)?
Posted by: Sam | Aug 19, 2011 12:07:14 PM
Sam,
I don't understand your issue. All I am saying is that the conflict needs to be resolved by Indian, Pakistani, and Kashmiri leaders sitting down and negotiating. I won't say what they should negotiate. Even if the negotiated solution is formalization of the status quo, that is fine.
It is unrealistic to expect either country to give up territory. Probably the best possible outcome is making the LOC the international border.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 19, 2011 12:13:52 PM
Sam,
Even the Simla Agreement says that the final status of Jammu and Kashmir is to be negotiated.
What is your argument? Or do you just enjoy spouting hatred against Pakistan?
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 19, 2011 12:17:58 PM
I agree with Kabir that religion was not the main issue that led to Partition. It was the question of safeguards for minority rights (in this case, the minority happened to be a religious minority).
Nice article. Omar has correctly stated that "the more Pakistan actually becomes what its official ideology claims it to be, the less successful it will be". The official ideology is generally believed to be "Islamic Ideology". That is the problem. The Quaid-e-Azam in his famous speech of Aug. 11, 1947 had enunciated the basic principles of the new state; these were fundamentally "secular" in nature. But this was ignored by the politicians (the ruling elite) of the time to promote their own selfish ends (the so called Islamic ideology) As Omar has said "problems embedded in its founding myths and supposed ideology act as powerful disruptors,,,,,IF it can de-emphasize its founding myths and so-called ideology, it can become a “normal” third world country with great potential and great practical problems. Problems to which its people will try to find solutions via arguments indistinguishable from the ones taking place in India or Bangladesh or even China and Thailand." As the writer has said " The real problems of Pakistan are the problems of poverty and inequality and this is just how the oppressive ruling elite try to distract people from their real struggle. To them, I would say, if the distraction is working, then the distraction has to be combatted."
Posted by: Hasan | Aug 19, 2011 12:25:47 PM
Ruchira,
With apologies to Omar for derailing the discussion, I would like to add that the majority in Kashmir broke out of the "Pakistan mould" mainly, not because of the economic reasons or the mess that Pakistan finds itself in, but there was a feeling of betrayal, of being selfishly used by Pakistan much before that. There was a widespread feeling that Pakistan had manipulated the Kashmiris for its own power struggle within the subcontinent. This was particularly reinforced when hoards of gullible trained Kashmiri youth returned from across the border with their stories of mistreatment and disbelief as to what Pakistan was. Kashmiri society started noticing the absence of Pandits, the socio-cultural void that their absence left and how short-sighted they had been to think that Azadi was around the corner. Pakistan's current distress just drew the last nail in the coffin, in my opinion.
Also, my feeling is that well-meaning, empathetic and well-informed Indians still don't see the extent to which India was/is responsible for this mess. Yes human rights violations during the last twenty years have been rather unforgivable, but the political history of the pre-89 Kashmir-New Delhi relationship and Delhi's manipulation of Kashmir politics, has the largest role to play in this estrangement, even when we acknowledge Pakistan's armed support of the insurgency. Even now India is doing nothing concrete to address the problem, the recently appointed team of interlocutors is big a joke and widely viewed as a "distracting tactic" by the Kashmiri public.
May be some other thread, some other time...
Best wishes!
Posted by: D | Aug 19, 2011 1:59:44 PM
Sorry, but also forgot to respond to this point you raise, "The question remains however that in the latter scenario, exactly how many hours will pass before Pakistani extremists march into the valley a la 1948? I think that is the bee in India's bonnet and not any national pride as espoused by the chest thumping Hindu right ignoramuses. "
I disagree, even the greater autonomy or "soft separatism" which some "pro-India", "mainstream" political parties in Kashmir support is hostage to this phenomenon. In 2000 the National Conference led State Legislative assembly (India's highest democratic seat in the State) passed a resolution for greater autonomy(of course within the Indian constitution) that was summarily rejected by the NDA-led alliance at the center. So much for "India" not having its own political compulsions and realities that the Kashmir issue is not hostage to.
Posted by: D | Aug 19, 2011 2:09:57 PM
"the final status of Jammu and Kashmir is to be negotiated"
And this is exactly what India has been doing since Shimla; except that Pakistan idea of negotiation is more often than not with a gun.
If calling a spade a spade is viewed as hatred, then I am in good company. I subscribe to Tharoor's less-than-diplomatic view about liberals in Pakistan; the Pakistani phlogger "Major" being a delightful exception.
http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/
Posted by: Sam | Aug 19, 2011 2:59:41 PM
D: Why don't you write a piece on Kashmir and the role of India in derailing or preventing an honest and acceptable solution to the stalemate? E-mail it to me and I will put it up on my blog. Or just send it as a private message for my own enlightenment. My e-mail address is at Accidental Blogger under "contact." I may not be the best informed person on the recent developments in Kashmir. The thugs at Roza Bal were not technically wrong in calling me a "foreigner." Although Indian born, I have been living outside India for the last thirty years.
Does the plan to liberate Kashmir include the Pakistani portion also or is that irretrievably gone from Kashmiri independence plans? You did not answer my question about how long Kashmir will remain independent on its own, given Pakistan's presence (and its passion for "justice" in Kashmir) next door.
As for derailing Omar's thread, don't worry. He is a nice sort (he also blogs at our site). The derailment is not entirely irrelevant. You can hardly discuss India, Pakistan and desi discontent without bringing up Kashmir.
Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 19, 2011 5:15:00 PM
Discussion of Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan is now mostly an academic matter or a way for some party (usually Pakistan) to justify their military posture. This train too has left the station (and in this case, I am happy that it has...I dont think the first partition was a good idea and obviously see no reason to add to its legacy). Indians and Pakistani can enjoy these arguments on teh intertubes for a few more years, but there will be no settlement that alters present borders (including the LOC). I am very confident of this prediction.
Jaish e Mohammed has been reactivated in Punjab, so I assume the army is ready to try another round of "tough negotiations", but the fallout will mostly remain within Pakistan. There seems to be some hope in paknationalist circles that american withdrawal equals an opportunity to return to the nineties. This does not seem realistic to me. It probably does not seem realistic to saner elements in GHQ either, but the hardcore Shireen Mazari types are not giving up yet. But the bottom line is that their grand enterprise has failed. They just dont know it yet. Arguments about legalities and statuses will change nothing now. We tried to settle it by more direct ("kinetic") means and failed. WHen you try kinetics and fail, you cannot go back to trying diplomacy or legalities to get what kinetics failed to get...
This does sound too optimistic a view of India to some people. Some friends insist the Indian state is not in much better shape than Pakistan and will soon have its own, mostly self-created disasters, but I am not convinced. I think India can now afford to wait it out. No border is going to change.
Posted by: omar | Aug 19, 2011 7:01:00 PM
Dear Ruchira,
Thank you for your kind invitation, I will definitely take it up, the messages if not a blog post, though I am no expert and have an opinion that is pretty much on the margins of the society I come from.
I must warn you that I am one of those Kashmiris who think about "the Azadi plan" as a "political and societal schizophrenia and civilizational dementia", so I am not quite sure how to answer your question, but all I can tell you is that hoards of young, educated Kashmiris have "answers" for you. There is much more going on in the discourse about Kashmir within Kashmiris, than either Indians or Pakistanis are aware of. Kashmiris, particularly of my generation and younger( who were children in, or born after, '89) reject the Indo-Pakistan lens through which the Kashmir problem has been viewed traditionally. I do not know on how firm a ground they are on regarding this, but I am just informing you of the current debates and the level of discourse among Kashmiris themselves. Kashmiri Muslim youth have emotionally traveled a long distance from the idea of India, this is a fact, what India will make of it, is another thing.
Thanks for the conversation, hope to carry it further!
Posted by: D | Aug 19, 2011 7:46:14 PM
D; Its not my place to decide what Kashmiris should want. Its your home, do what you want. But I do have a few predictions, offered in good faith (though I am old enough to expect that they may not be welcomed): that nothing will change in terms of political borders and arrangements.
NOTHING.
POK will remain with Pakistan. IOK will remain with India. IF things go well, there will be some lessening of tension and violence and increase in trade and travel. If they dont, even that wont happen. I expect that many Kashmiris will entertain many "new" ideas. I expect that they will come to nothing.
These are just predictions, not prescriptions. Feel free to dislike them and even to offer your own predictions.
My time frame here is about 10-15 years. By then, this generation will be too old to have new and original ideas. What ideas the next generation will have, I have no idea.
Posted by: omar | Aug 19, 2011 11:47:58 PM
Omar,
I agree with you that the most likely resolution to the Kashmir conflict will be the formalization of the status quo.
However, if we can forget about India and Pakistan for a minute and look at the situation from the Kashmiri perspective-- don't the Kashmiris, like other nations, have the right to self-determination? Shouldn't their interests come into play?
If a substantial number of Kashmiris feel that they do not want to be part of India, than India either has to address their concerns such that they are content to be part of the Union or negotiate some other settlement. You can't hold a territory by military occupation indefinitely.
There are many possible arrangements other than the status quo being formalized, which would entail both India and Pakistan losing territory. The Valley could become independent, The Valley and Azad Kashmir could become one independent unit, or the entire former princely state of Kashmir could become independent. The only solutions that are absolutely untenable are the "Pak Wins" scenario of the entire former princely state becoming part of Pakistan or the "India wins" scenario of Azad Kashmir and Gligit-Baltistan becoming part of India.
Posted by: Kabir | Aug 20, 2011 10:51:48 AM
Running it through the decoder, it is the Kashmiri Muslim perspective and the Kashmiri Muslim interests that you are "concerned" with. Not the ethnically-cleansed Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) - and let's stop pretending that this was done by Pakistani infiltrators - or the Kashmiri Sikhs or the Kashmiri Buddhists. Honestly, the last thing that Indians want are more Muslims from Gilgit and Baltistan to join their Union, and they wouldn't care if the Muslims in the valley joined with Pakistan (because they are deluding themselves if they think that they could be independent - I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not pulling a Fai here and honestly believe that hydroelectric power revenue will make them a Switzerland and keep the Pakistani Punjabi Junkers away). However, this would reward people who terrorized their Hindu neighbours into fleeing, and given that this already happened in Pakistan (East and West) AFTER the Partition, most Indians balk for this reason.
Posted by: Sam | Aug 20, 2011 1:52:55 PM
"shouldnt they have the right..." is a different question. Such questions can be asked in many different forms about many different communities and the answers are not always clear cut. But my point was not "should", my point was "will". As in "I dont think the border will change". Thats not a moral judgment, that is an estimate of what is likely, based on what I know of the people involved and their respective positions and abilities.
"shouldnt America legalize all drugs?". I think it should. Will it? Not in the next 10-15 years. That doesnt stop people from trying for it and who knows, some of the triers may have much longer term view...
Posted by: omar | Aug 20, 2011 4:08:18 PM
Tangentially related: http://www.brownpundits.com/2011/08/21/taliban-claim-jamrud-attack-as-toll-reaches-56/
Posted by: omar | Aug 21, 2011 6:42:03 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/world/asia/24baluch.html?_r=1&hp
Pakistan’s Bitter, Little-Known Ethnic Rebellion
Posted by: Sam | Aug 24, 2011 2:17:33 AM
http://www.brownpundits.com/2011/08/26/pakistan-tnt-and-so-on/
Posted by: omar | Aug 26, 2011 5:49:21 PM
I think religion was not the main issue that led to Partition. It was the question of safeguards for minority rights (in this case, the minority happened to be a religious minority).
But what about other minority religious groups in India? For example, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, Sikhs. If their rights could be safeguarded, then why not those of Muslims? Why did some Muslims feel that their rights could not be guaranteed? If you say it wasn't religion, then it seems like safeguarding the rights of minorities wasn't an issue either.
Posted by: Kaffir | Oct 7, 2011 2:28:36 AM
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