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July 11, 2011

On FAMiLY Leader, Homosexuality, and Crippling the Institution of Marriage

by Tauriq Moosa

Michele-bachmann-817-cropped-proto-custom_2 I imagine that most of us are relieved to hear that Republican Michele Bachmann is going to become the first presidential candidate “to sign a pledge created by THE FAMiLY [sic] LEADER, an influential social-conservative group in Iowa.” Ms Bachmann, by signing the pledge, “vows” to “uphold the institution of marriage as only between one man and one woman.” The best is the Vow which calls for the banning of all forms of pornography. Oh and by the way, my gay and lesbian comrades, homosexuality is not only a choice but a “health risk”. 

There are number of ways to look at this. Firstly, we can look at the political machinations involved, demonstrating what the human animal is willing to grab hold of in order to maintain the velocity of power as she swings from one constitutional branch to another.  Or, we might consider the actual document itself that makes claims equally baffling and, to put it politely, arrogant. But then, we should no longer be surprised by the incredible knowledge religious people sprout since, somehow, they do have access to the inner thoughts of the Creator of the Universe (and friggin’ flamingos and tonsils, too, mind you). Neither focus in themselves is worth our time, but considering the level at which this is aimed, it deserves critical responses.

Debasing the Currency of Marriage

I’m not one for marriage or really even monogamy, but I do think personal choice matters. If I so choose to engage in polyamory or promiscuity [PDF], no one should force me into choosing only one partner; similarly, whilst I think many monogamous relationships are quite strange and, ahem, “against our nature”, I have no problem with people doing it (just as, with most things like drugs, prostitution, and suicide, they do it of their own choice, don’t unnecessarily harm others, etc.) Furthermore, data indicate that it’s better for health and longevity that many men don’t get married at all and there are similarities for females. (This seems the appropriate time to indicate having children doesn’t bring happiness. Don’t blame me, blame the data.)

Yet, discussing data while focusing on a conservative religious group is like eating ice-cream while watching a documentary about starving African children. It loses its flavour and potency in attempting to combat the problem at hand. So let’s have a quick look at the Pledge. The Preface to the FAMiLY Leader pledge reads:

Social protections…have been evaporating as we have collectively ‘debased the currency’ of marriage…in complete absence of empirical proof, that non-heterosexual inclination are genetically determined, irresistible and akin to innate traits like race, gender and eye color; as well as anti-scientific bias which holds, against all empirical evidence, that homosexual behavior in particular, and sexual promiscuity in general, optimizes individual or public health.

Wait, let’s go back. “In complete absence of empirical proof…” Did we really just read that? I can think of a few studies, for example, that PubMed quickly throws up. Whitham and colleagues did a study on 61 pairs and 3 triplet sets of people which had at least one member who was homosexual. The study was longitudinal with recruitment starting as early as 1980 and the study itself was completed in the 90’s. It also included an 18-page questionnaire. 38 pairs of monozygotic twins were found to have a concordance rate of 65.8% for homosexual orientation; dizygotic twins, as is to be expected, was lower with 30.4%. They interpreted the findings as “supporting the argument for a biological basis in sexual orientation.” Another study by Pillar and Bailey obtained similar findings, indicating even in their title that “human sexual orientation has a heritable component”.

What I doubt you’ll find is a study showing it is solely genetic. But then, as people like Steven Pinker indicate, hardly any attribute (save the obvious like eye-colour and even then…) are purely genetic or environmental. It’s a combo of both, but there’s little doubt as to genetics being a significant component (not just in homosexuality but in many things: anger, violence, intelligence, and so on). But this would be playing the Faithful’s game.

The more important question is: who cares if it is genetic? Does it matter whether someone is kind or horrible because of genetics or his or her family? Things get difficult though – and I’m epistemically unconvinced by many arguments – when we discuss things like “moments of insanity” and psychopaths. Anyway, we don’t want to make a genetic fallacy and accord some random moral criteria to the origin of homosexuality. It really is unimportant in deciding whether it’s moral, immoral or – it seems to me – amoral. But somehow, according to the document, society’s acceptance of homosexuality as genetic has led to the debasing of marriage. I don’t have the full document so I’m not sure if the Family Leader provides evidence of this. I know I’ve heard many such arguments and there are, again, two responses:

Firstly, there is little to no evidence to support such a claim that marriage is say declining or is lowered because of homosexuality (if you do find some, please alert me to it. I may not have searched hard enough). What we will have is, in fact, an advantage, since we won’t have gay people being forced into relationships they don’t care for. Even if we concede there is data supporting decreasing marriage directly related to increased acceptance of homosexuality, what you will have is less heterosexual marriages but probably ones of longer-lasting and better quality, since you won’t have men and women forced into relationships that just aren’t to their tastes (notice, even this indicates how irrelevant the genetic component is, even if it is completely Western-liberal-media-scientific fraud).

Secondly, as will be reiterated again and again: so what? Or, who cares? What is so important about maintaining marriage? This is just assumed to be some important component of a society – and not just marriage, but of course monogamous theistic marriage. And I’ve already indicated data tells us it’s nothing special and doesn’t lead to longer lives (and let me stress again, children aren’t good for you either).

Maintaining Marriage

Vow 4 says that there must not be a redefinition of marriage. It must be defended “through statutory, bureaucratic, or court-imposed recognition of the Institution of Marriage”. It’s not my fault that when I hear “institution” I think of a mental-asylum. That’s my psychology student talking, along with the usual boring epithets of wedding rings as nooses, relationships as straight-jackets, blah blah.

Anyway, the Vow claims that polyamory, adultery and so on are out the very fabulous window. This of course would follow if one believes in the sanctity of the institution of marriage. Just as not eating pork would be obvious in a list of “Don’ts” in a Muslim eating-guide. But again, there is no reason for us to accept this until we’ve good reason to maintain the specific, recent, theistic conception of marriage as the only, best and important way to conduct oneself in a relationship or indeed as the goal of relationships. Even data that indicates that marriage is unhealthy or reduces lifespans matters not at all when it is about obeying the rules god has sent down. “I didn’t ask if you like it,” he might yell through a strong American General’s accent, “I’m ordering you to do it!” Let’s not forget that if you do this there is probably some great reward: like not being forced into an eternity of companionship with Carlos Mencia’s comedic ability or Johnny Depp’s versatility.

So, data, in fact doesn’t matter; which was why I’m surprised they bother mentioning it, despite the irrelevance to the ethical argument earlier. Remember I said I don’t mind marriage as long as polyamory was allowed.

This precisely indicates the problem with sanctifying an institution of human relationship. It fails to recognise that humans are fluid, their interactions like an ocean. Sanctification of humans and their interactions, especially with their fellows, is trying to rake leaves in the wind (not my metaphor, but from the character Antoine Batiste from David Simon’s Treme). Or rather is like trying to box in a river with an open cage.

Homosexuality is a Public Health Risk

I’ll quote what I can from ThinkProgress, where I’m drawing this from.

– HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PUBLIC HEALTH RISK: Footnote 4 claims that homosexuality causes shorter life expectancy and a higher probability of a long list of sexually transmitted diseases. The Leader has previously compared same-sex marriage to second-hand smoking.

This would be an interesting statistic to obtain. But again: so what? As I indicated, there is data indicating that heterosexual marriage also leads to a lower life expectancy for everyone involved. Should we therefore ban it? Imagine we discover that being kind, generous and helping others leads to lower life expectancy: this is quite true for many who are volunteers at MSF and Aid groups that travel to disaster areas. They increase their risk of death from disease and collateral damage from simply being in the vicinity of their patients. Should that be sufficient reason to ban it? However, this Pledge doesn’t claim that a shorter life expectancy is sufficient reason to ban marriage. It is one part of many necessary factors and premises they consider leads to the conclusion that has crippled the Institution of Marriage and threatens it continually.

Ironically, I don’t disagree with them on this level. I think this is an empirical question and there is good reason to take their claims seriously: I do think that a wider acceptance of and further tolerance of homosexuality, as seen in same-sex civil unions which New York recently approved (excellent news, by the way), will run parallel to a decrease or lack of adherence to the sanctification of marriage. This seems obvious.

However, what I’m contesting and what we should all be contesting is the Family Leader's justification for making the so-called Institution of Marriage, between man and woman, the only legal version of marriage. And we can take their claims about health as one such point which is largely, um, unfounded. Indeed, the website the Leader had up proclaiming this was taken down, according to LGBT Nation. The website “asserts that homosexuality reduces life expectancy by up to 35 years and promotes the idea that homosexuality is a curable disease”.

Again, if this is so, then all manner of things should be banned, too, like smoking! But, despite all evidence telling us that smoking is bad, we allow it because we think people are adult enough to decide how they want to live their lives. Apparently, like second-hand smoke there is even an increase in cancer for homosexual men. This all baffles me. Considering I don’t have the data they’ve used, it might be a bit glib to dismiss this as complete nonsense – but considering I’ve not come across such data from more, um, unbiased sources, I’ll not take it seriously (until shown otherwise). But I need only reiterate: So what? Why can people not choose for themselves?

Sex is Better After Marriage

Vow 5 might be my favourite. Vow 5 says that the candidate must support the notion that “married people enjoy better health, better sex.” First Question: HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS? When you say x is better than y, you must know x in order to make such a judgement. So, initially it seems a worry for conservatives that any of them should even be able to make this comparison.

But of course many would have had premarital sex, then convert and repent their ways, claiming they were lost, sinners, etc., and then after forcing themselves into the haggard arms of the Institution of Marriage with some pie-making, Bible-thumping, wife with teeth as white as the picket fence outside, they will nod and agree and mutter that of course sex now is so much better.

And, secondly, our old friend: (even if true) Who cares? Here we have another irrelevant criteria: So what? Imagine we discover that heterosexual parents often are worse parents than, say, a lesbian couple. Does that mean that there must be no heterosexual parents because lesbians are better parents? Oh wait: We’ve discovered that in fact lesbians often are better parents. Sorry heterosexual parents: give up your darlings.

Goodbye Internet

And, finally, we must get rid of the Internet's No #1 Product pornography, despite it running and shaping the modern world. If Google was a merchant, we can just imagine how empty his stalls would be. Anyway, their reason? I’m not sure whether they’ve bothered with good reasons anymore as opposed to “Things that just seem to piss us off”. There’s the usual stuff about “innocence” and “protection of women” and “promiscuity”. From an ethical standpoint, pornography is a tricky subject. Nonetheless, we may trust that many enjoy their work, are involved in various roles (like raising sex awareness) and want nothing else.

Some interviews confirm this. And there is also the automatic assumption that only women are involved, whereas there are male pornstars (I discovered that they exist after hearing one of their voices on ‘American Dad’. It is perhaps one of the most beautiful male speaking voices I’ve ever heard. Have a listen to this 38 second clip.)

 

Anyway, we need to get rid of pornography to maintain the sanctity of marriage because, as usual, people can’t decide for themselves, need to be babied and so on. There is a hint of irony in that it’s called adult entertainment, but the reason to ban it is often so childish. Just as not criminalising cigarettes hasn’t led to everyone being smokers, so the same for gay marriage, pornography, and so on.

Finally…

Unlike Aids, homosexuality is not catching; and even if it is, and even if pornography destroys marriages, and even if homosexuality is bad for your health, and so on, what does it matter? We have little reason to maintain this strange creature called the Institute of Marriage, which harbours the common cold of relationships called monogamy. Surely we want a nation of people able to think for themselves instead of being rule-worshippers who perform or refrain from engaging in acts solely for the fear of the law? As John Stuart Mill says at the end of ‘On Liberty’: “A state which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more docile instruments in its hands even for beneficial purposes--will find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished.”

Two final things.

Firstly, there is one thing this Pledge states which I 100% agree with: Reject Sharia Law. Well done – they got something right. Being something of a consequentialist, I at least can give them this conclusion, whilst disdaining their reasoning for doing so. The reason of course is that Sharia allows for all sorts of unsavory affairs between young girls that would generally upset the Christians. I’m not myself convinced of many arguments discussing pedophilia, but then, some of you may recall I’ve defended cannibalism and incest for the same reasons.

Secondly, perhaps the solution is to just get rid of State-sanctioned marriage altogether. It seems a reasonable approach, since I’ve often wondered what role a State should have between the private, consensual interactions between two (or more!) adults, that harm no one else (in a limited sense of ‘harm’). We need only have something like “civil union” for tax benefits or something of a kind; but then, this need have nothing to do with the sex or romantic relationships, perhaps. We can say even best friends can be part of a civil union because they live together in the same house, apartment or something of a kind.

The point is, we must reflect on the reasons for having the State involved at all and whether we cannot achieve it another way. If we are able to, in a secular way that is beneficial, we can easily hand over “marriage” to the religious. Then they can fit on their faith-bells and prayer-whistles, put it in a white dress of sanctity and pass it off as a viable way to engage with a fellow human beings. This doesn’t mean the rest of us would, by definition, really be that much better off, but at least we wouldn’t face criminal charges because, say, we’d become bored with our partner.

I'll leave the last word for the great Louis CK.

 

Posted by Tauriq Moosa at 11:43 AM | Permalink

Comments

I get the impression that gays want the right to marry without the obligation to be monogamous. As a result, they take every possible opportunity to denigrate monogamy. They want "open" marriage. They also write a great deal about the "boredom" of monogamy. They never mention the obligations of raising children. I'm not religious and I fully support gay marriage, but to me they generally sound like adolescents.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 11, 2011 2:18:09 PM

You think monogamy is mature?

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 11, 2011 2:27:06 PM

Yes.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 11, 2011 3:12:24 PM

Why?

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 11, 2011 3:35:29 PM

If even a lifetime isn't long enough to get to know the one person you love and choose to share your life with, why would you think you need to be intimate with anyone else? Why would you want to be? Unless, of course, you do not really love your spouse. In that case, why did you get married?

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 11, 2011 3:53:53 PM

You honestly sound like an alien in this thread, Hawkins. Or perhaps a computer. Some non-human being, in any case.

Somewhere along the line you mistook repression for virtue.

Posted by: tomas | Jul 11, 2011 5:35:35 PM

This is a ridiculous and childish post not worthy of 3Quarks' usual high standards. It's poorly done, the type of languishing navel gazing and self-justifying op-ed trash you find in a (very lousy) freshman college paper.

Posted by: mrgoodbar | Jul 11, 2011 7:58:21 PM

Hey, where did the Christian Right suddenly come from? "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

I don't think it was quite as bad an essay as all that, though I have a few comments I might make on the argument. For one thing, I think it's pretty clear why the authors of the document in question tried to throw in an appeal to "empirical data." These folks are beginning to realize that just harping on their religious dogmas doesn't do much to win more converts to their ranks, so they probably figure that tossing in some "data" might help. Too bad their "data" is bogus, but at least they're making an attempt.

Similarly for the claim of "better sex" after tying the knot. "Well," you can hear them saying to themselves, "those DFH obviously think sex is important, so let's include a claim that (hetero) marriage improves that aspect of life, too. Who knows if it's true? It sounds good."

Posted by: JonJ | Jul 11, 2011 8:57:42 PM

3QD has distinguished itself by advancing the genre of the screed, which remains avant-garde, while also being part of the mass amateurization of everything.

Posted by: Aditya Dev Sood | Jul 11, 2011 11:22:54 PM

It is baffling how people continue to believe monogamy is only possible within a straight relationship. I still do not understand how gay marriage erodes family values or diminishes the meaning of the institution. I would say what diminishes the institution of marriage is the astronomical divorce rate, not gays.
Maybe, marriage will work out better for gays than for straight people -- wouldn't that be interesting?

Posted by: Odilia Rivera Santos | Jul 11, 2011 11:33:02 PM

J.Hawkins may sound a bit naive, others here somewhat contrarian. To me it seems more sensible to acknowledge, like Tauriq wisely does in this essay, that human relationships are both various and fluid. Lots of things can work, many more might not. We don't need hard rules or self-righteous pronouncements.

Posted by: uncontrarian | Jul 11, 2011 11:54:53 PM


Well said, Tauriq Moosa.

Respectfully,
Yours

Posted by: Donise | Jul 12, 2011 12:03:59 AM

Great comment, Aditya Dev Sood (Jul 11, 11:22). While there is sometimes still great (and original) content on 3QD, it's normally either this (more) blog-worthy stuff, or pieces one has picked up a day or more earlier, direct from the source. The model needs tweaking.

Posted by: George Wyatt | Jul 12, 2011 5:26:30 AM

"I do think that a wider acceptance of and further tolerance of homosexuality, as seen in same-sex civil unions ...will run parallel to a decrease or lack of adherence to the sanctification of marriage. This seems obvious."
So obvious? You might argue the opposite: that if more gays are in long-term recognized relationships, then they will tend to buy more fitted kitchens and become more square. They may even see themselves as champions of family values and vote GOP.

Posted by: aguy109 | Jul 12, 2011 9:34:37 AM

People who think monogamy is repressive should simply not marry. Remain single and embrace your "freedom", explore your sexuality,sow your wild seeds, indulge your bi curiosity, take part in orgies. No doubt it can be arranged at orgy.com. The rest of us terribly repressed people can take on the oh so onerous task of caring for our husbands, wives and children with all the time, commitment and love that requires. Of course, marriages may fail. Divorce is sometimes inevitable. But "open" marriages have failed before they even start. Why even call them "marriages" when they boil down to arrangements between room mates? I respect people, straight or gay, who promise to be faithful and keep that promise.I have no respect for people who make that promise and betray it. As for those enlightened people who are completely honest with their partners about their promiscuity - that's fine, but my comment on room mates applies.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 12, 2011 10:35:15 AM

I respect your position J., but in the current context, marriage is reduced to a contract to assure legal protections and benefits entitlement in exchange for the loss of individual filing income caps and (soon in NYC anyway) the loss of non-married domestic partner benefits. The whole sanctity, forsaking all others thing is marriage of a different sort.

That said, people are weak, temptations and opportunities are common, marriages hit rough spots, and sometimes people who never thought they would stray do so. Alternatively, sometimes people are simply French.

Posted by: Carlos | Jul 12, 2011 11:34:30 AM

To say that one's life path is the "mature" life path implies that there is only one proper path, and all who don't seek that one path fail to do so out of immaturity.

It would be very strange for a species like ours if the ONE SINGLE CORRECT life path JUST HAPPENED to be one strongly rooted in accidents of biology, one that has been required only as a means to control our jealous tantrums regarding sexual fidelity.

Any means of communication between brains is valuable. Verbal communication is great - no one would suggest that the mature route is to only have one interlocutor, one friend. But sex is a method of connection, communication, and there is no abstract reason that it should be limited to a single person - only personal preference and capability.

Many people can't handle being poly, but I wouldn't necessarily call them "immature" for that reason.

And the idea that the "mature" thing to do is to breed is just repellent, given the present state of the natural world.

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 12, 2011 11:54:24 AM

J., you're one of those reasonable-sounding bigots, aren't you? You're full of logical fallacies and hard assumptions based on no facts but your own limited (and limiting) experience. You're tedious.

Posted by: Sum Dam | Jul 12, 2011 12:58:44 PM

Sum Dam

Perhaps you would be so kind as to list the logical fallacies? Then I'll address them.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 12, 2011 1:07:40 PM

One of the things we value about our species is our propensity to cooperate. Friendships are special in that we choose to cooperate without any necessary expectation of reciprocity or personal gain.

Monogamy, or mutual sexuality output contracts, essentially work to limit cooperation outside of a diad. Partners agree to turn all sexual (and often nonsexual) investment inward, toward the diad, rather than outward, toward friends and the larger society.

This is justified as "moral" in that these inward-looking, cooperation-limiting diads are assumed (with limited data, if we even bother to look at data t all) to be the building blocks for the things we care about as a larger society - development, space program, vaccines, etc.

This is used to justify forcing everyone into these sorts of selfish diads.

It seems ironic to me.

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 12, 2011 1:34:06 PM

J, your first comment reminded me of something Foucault once talked about, he said (I'm paraphrasing) that getting angry with gays for their brief escapades in public toilets and so on, is a bit like how people used to hate Jews for being money-lenders, when this was the only profession they were legally allowed to practice. You show contempt for their cultural habits which are simply strategies around the criminalization of a very central aspect of their being. Quite condescending and repellent of you.

You also show an astounding ignorance about marriage as a human institution. 83% percent of societies practice or allow polygamy, which at bottom is about the distribution of resources to heirs, as is your precious monogamy.

Posted by: Jesse | Jul 12, 2011 2:17:57 PM

I may not live in a first world country, but at least my Government protects each and every single one of it citizens, offering equal rights to all! None of this hypocritical nonsense. Land of the free?

Posted by: Bloffie | Jul 12, 2011 2:19:20 PM

From my reading, polygamy is strongly correlated with low status for women. Saudi Arabia allows polygamy, but does not allow women to drive. This does not strike me as a ringing endorsement of polygamy. As for marriage, I would take the religion out of it. It should be a purely secular affair, with the only role for the state being to enforce legal protections for children. I'm not a Buddhist, but this following passage seems reasonable to me:

"In Buddhism, marriage is not a sacrament. It is purely a secular affair and the monks do not participate in it. Hence it receives no religious sanction.[9] Forms of marriage consequently vary from country to country.

It is said in the Parabhava Sutta that "a man who is not satisfied with one woman and seeks out other women is on the path to decline".

Isn't there some truth to this? Isn't promiscuity a kind of greed? And isn't it necessarily very corrosive to the family and to children?

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 12, 2011 3:38:39 PM

Wait, have you even heard of polyamory? Like, the kind practiced by people in post-industrial societies with legal gender equality?

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 12, 2011 4:02:15 PM

I found a new word today:

Compersion

"is a state of empathetic happiness and joy experienced when an individual's current or former romantic partner experiences happiness and joy through an outside source, including, but not limited to, another romantic interest".

Thanks so much for the joy and laughter I experienced reading this definition. Good luck with your "compersion"

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 12, 2011 4:25:05 PM

Polys come up with many snicker-worthy terms - compersion is among the most embarrassing. I first heard it from a 22-year-old Randian/objectivist.

It's fine, as long as you realize snickering isn't an argument - it's refusing to give reverence. Which is kinda what we are on about regarding marriage. <3

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 12, 2011 5:13:11 PM

I wish I had written Jesse's comment. Bravo.

Posted by: burple | Jul 12, 2011 10:41:56 PM

Whatever you may think, marriage has always been a contract; between the members of the couple (gay or straight) and the couple and the state (as a recognition of certain legal rights that apply to married couples). Thankfully, in most western countries, this is a contract that is entered into voluntarily. I don't understand where this idea of marriage being "oppression" comes up. Perhaps in the past, it was and in certain abusive situations, it is oppressive. Could someone explain to me why, as an institution, we can call marriage oppressive today?

I understand J Hawkins position. His assertion about monogamy in marriage being "mature" is about trust. When you say you are going to be sexually faithful to someone, it is immature to turn around and break that promise. It's all about expectations. You can just as well agree to allow sexual promiscuity in your marriage. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. As long as both (or all) partners know the score up front.

Posted by: Bill | Jul 13, 2011 3:14:30 AM

Perhaps you would be so kind as to list the logical fallacies? Then I'll address them.

....

Hasty Generalization

Posted by: Sum Dam | Jul 13, 2011 1:14:35 PM

A post from a "poly" site:

"His current wife is actually his and his first wife's girlfriend, who he divorced after she went crazy. Why did she lose it? Because he ended up putting the girlfriend first time and time again. He did it with his first marriage and it ended badly, and now he's doing it again with this marriage (who takes the girlfriend on the honeymoon??).

Also, the older brother kinda stole their girlfriend from his younger brother. When I went to go visit them over spring break, it made for very awkward dinners"

When did people become so selfish, stupid and deluded?

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 13, 2011 2:28:52 PM

You're right, one person's bad experience proves that poly can't work. Unlike monogamy, which has been proven time and again to promote human flourishing with 100% success.

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 13, 2011 3:29:03 PM

Selfish: (from the paper "Spousal Homicide Risk and Estrangement" by Daly & Wilson)

"I was in love with Margaret, and she would not live with me anymore. I knew it was all finished so I bought the rifle to shoot her and then kill myself. If I can't have her, nobody can." (Statement by an Australian man who killed his wife, from whom he had been separated for one month)

Stupid:

Kate Spicer

Deluded:

From the paper "Marriage Paradoxes" by Frey and Eichenberger:

"Empirical research reveals that marriage decisions systematically deviate from the predictions based upon the conventional neo-classical approach in four respects: (1) people search surprisingly little for available marriage partners; (2) the characteristics of a potential partner are evaluated in a strongly biased way; (3) individuals take little advice for their marriage decision; and (4) the likelihood of one's own marriage ending in a divorce is strongly underestimated." (Emphasis mine)

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 13, 2011 3:52:55 PM

Right on Sister Y!

Posted by: Sum Dam | Jul 13, 2011 5:26:31 PM

From the wiki on polyamory:

Parents are primarily responsible for their own children (biological, adoptive, or step-), but other members of the relationship act as an extended family, providing assistance in child-rearing.
Adults raise children collectively, all taking equal responsibility for each child regardless of consanguinity.
Parents are wholly responsible for their own children, with other members of the relationship relating to the children as friends of the parents.
Children treat parents' partners as a form of stepparent or are told to think of them as aunts and uncles.

My question is - if everyone is screwing everyone how does anyone know who's kids are whose? I see a growth market here in genetic testing. And what if it turns out that all the kids are from the tallest, handsomest, sexiest man - how does that make the shorter, plainer and less sexy men feel? Are they happy to help raise the alpha male's kids? I'd really like to know.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 14, 2011 10:46:08 AM

It's not uprecedented, J. H. Prior to humans making the connection that 'sex equals babies,' the tribal units viewed all babies as gifts from the gods, and for many centuries, the only reliable manner of marking descendence was through the female. Marriage was one tool to transfer descendence to the males. Reay Tannahill's book, "Sex in History" goes on at length about these transitions, and it is a great read. I recommend it.

Posted by: lambness | Jul 14, 2011 11:35:34 AM

Thanks, lambness.

It's in our stacks. I'll read it.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 14, 2011 11:41:23 AM

Mind projection fallacy

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 14, 2011 1:36:41 PM

Now that I have been made aware of the existence of polyamory, which I had never heard of previously, though I have heard of "swingers", I have tried to come up with a reply to their demands for marriage rights. How about this?
1. All benefits such as health care, pensions, etc should go to individuals independent of their relationship status and should be guaranteed by the state.
2. The state has no interest whatever in anyone's personal relationships except in the of those which produce children
3. Both parents of children, whether biological or adoptive (as proven by genetic testing if necessary) are legally responsible for their maintenance and well being until the age of eighteen.
4. When a child is born, the parents must agree to testing if required and sign an agreement to be responsible for the child.
5. The state gets out of the marriage business completely. It's only interest is to protect the welfare of children.
6. There will be no more marriage of any kind, only contracts of parental responsiblity. Aside from that, people are free to do whatever they want.
7. As far as inheritance, children will have first claims on the parents' estate. All other inheritance goes strictly according to an individual's will.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 14, 2011 4:14:28 PM

I forgot to add that this would make the push for gay marriage moot. People who still wished to be "married" could do so at a church, temple, synagogue or wiccan forest of their choosing.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 14, 2011 4:21:20 PM

Wow! I heartily agree that the government should not be in the marriage business.

I find myself in agreement with almost every detail of your proposal, with the exception of (3), in that I think a person who did not consent to the conception of a child should not be forced to pay child support. (See Kate Spicer, above.)

Posted by: Sister Y | Jul 14, 2011 4:36:36 PM

Prior to humans making the connection that 'sex equals babies,' the tribal units viewed all babies as gifts from the gods,

This bit strikes me as dubious. Do we know of any tribal units like this? Even gorillas and chimpanzees seem to have some concept of fatherhood.

Posted by: Sagredo | Jul 15, 2011 12:13:03 AM

"Four different mating strategies have been described
in chimpanzees: possessive mating, opportunistic mating,
consortship, and extragroup mating (Tutin, 1979;
Goodall, 1986; Hasegawa and Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1992;
Watts, 1998; Vigilant et al. 2001)."

Sagredo, I think the point is THAT they reproduce, not with whom they reproduce. Reproduction has everything to do with access to females--i.e. how often they 'mate', not their ability to identify their own offspring. Apes, at least, will reproduce as often as the number of females and competing males will allow. Monogamy doesn't exist in ape culture. Does this strike you as antithetical to the point I was making?

Posted by: lambness | Jul 15, 2011 12:43:59 AM

Sister Y

Glad we agree. There is no good reason to tie any kind of benefits to employment - this is just the way things happened to develop in the U.S. In Canada, every citizen has access to health care simply by being Canadian. Pensions should also be decoupled from employment and handled by the state. I see Sweden as a model here. Employers and employees would be taxed to fund this. The elimination of marriage would require a huge revision of our legal system, but I see no other way to achieve fairness. The chances of a complete restructuring of our benefits and legal system are approximately zero, of course. Marriage would still exist, but only as a religious designation. Church and state should be completely separate. Immigration laws would also have to be changed as they now favor spouses. A way would have to be found to avoid separating couples and families in the immigration process. There would really have to be sweeping changes in the way society operates.

The people who fear that gay marriage will open the floodgate to the destruction of marriage are, in fact, right. Ultimately, the state cannot provide any guarantee for the stability of any relationships, nor can a religion. It's the moral quality of the individuals that counts. And improving that will be a very long struggle with no end in sight.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 15, 2011 9:24:10 AM

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