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August 23, 2010

A Rational Approach to Irrationality

Irrational Intense battles are being waged over religion and its rightful place in society.  There are debates over evolution and creationism, conflicts over the teaching of evolution in schools, and disagreement on matters of religious accommodation.  People are passionate about their positions and the debates often get nasty.  However, I think that the respective sides have more common ground than they realize.

Suppose you could choose either to maximize human rationality or to maximize human happiness.  For most of us, even for the most strident advocates of reason and critical thinking, I suspect the choice would be happiness or well-being.  Sam Harris, a well-known advocate of reason has suggested that maximizing human well-being ought to be the very foundation of our moral system.  What would be the value of reason if it didn’t contribute to well-being?

Let’s assume that the value of reason ultimately lies in its ability to improve well-being.  Reason and empiricism have brought us great scientific discoveries, lifesaving medicines, and technologies that make our lives longer and healthier.  It’s undeniable that rationality can improve well-being.

It might seem, given these benefits, that improving rationality would improve well-being.  But irrationality has its perks.  Delusions can provide comfort.  They can give us confidence, hope, or a sense of purpose.  Superstitions can improve athletic performance, and psychics and astrologers can help people deal with the discomfort of not knowing what the future holds.  The most rational objective, then, is not necessarily to have everyone be completely rational but rational to the extent that optimizes well-being.  

If we are to be rational and scientific, we ought to appreciate the value of diversity and the role of evolution in shaping our minds.  We are predisposed to delusional thinking because our brains have evolved this way; it was evolutionarily advantageous.  It is human nature to be somewhat delusional.  To expect people to be perfectly rational is to ask us to defy our own nature.  It isn’t reasonable.

None of us is completely rational.  Many of our social conventions have no rational basis, and some of the things we do to be sexually attractive or likable are just plain ridiculous.  I consider myself to be relatively rational, yet I often find myself doing things that don't make a lot of sense.  I reconcile this with the words of Walt Whitman: “Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.”  We are complex animals.

Some people seem to be more prone to delusional thinking than others.  This is just one of many ways we differ from one another.  Some of us are good with numbers and computation, while others are better with languages.  Some people enjoy debate, while others find it upsetting.  Some are interested in politics; others are more interested in celebrity hairstyles.  This diversity is not a bad thing.  

It might seem that the world would be a better place if we were all interested and well-informed on important topics.  It might be nice if everyone had a basic understanding of the science behind everyday things.  It might be nice if everyone cared enough to vote, and if everyone were rational.  But just as we need scientists and other professionals who have a proclivity for reason and empiricism, we need artists and people who feel their way through the world.  Such people may be better able to create great works of art that move us on a non-rational level.  We are emotional animals; people who understand this aspect of our nature well have much to contribute.

The diversity in our interests and aptitudes is largely attributable to innate predispositions.  There may be fundamental differences in the way that astrologers and astronomers process information, for example.  For a reason-oriented person, gazing at the night sky might inspire curiosity about the origins and workings of the universe.  A more spiritual observer might experience a strong emotional response that reinforces a belief in a supernatural power.  Not everyone makes sense of the world in the same way; perhaps empiricism is not for everyone.  

The importance of this type of diversity is evident to me when I think of my friends.  I have some very rational friends with whom I enjoy debate and stimulating conversation.  I also have friends who embrace beliefs that seem completely ridiculous to me.  Some are atheists and some are religious, and with others, religion has never come up.  I like some of my friends, not because they share my worldview, but because they’re funny or fun to be with, or because we enjoy some of the same activities.  It’s possible to form important relationships with people who have very different worldviews.  There is a lot more to a person than his or her worldview or capacity for reason.

I don’t mean to imply that everyone’s views are equally valid or that we should tolerate everyone’s behaviors.  Irrational thinking can certainly be harmful.  It can cause people to avoid helpful medical treatments in favor of harmful alternatives.  It can lead to outbreaks of preventable diseases, compromise science education, promote bigotry and violence, etc.  It must be kept in check.

However, the response of self-proclaimed rational people to irrationality can also be harmful.  Anyone who’s been around the blogosphere knows that skeptics and atheists can be nasty.  The frustration and anger that underlies the vitriol is understandable, but the nastiness is probably counterproductive.  As Bad Astronomer, Phil Plait, points out in a recent talk, few skeptics have arrived at their convictions as a result of verbal abuse. 

There is little evidence to suggest that verbal abuse is an effective persuasion tactic when it comes to irrational thinking.  It might lead some to reject their irrational views, but it’s more likely to cause people to cling to their views more tightly.  It can also reinforce the view that atheists are morally bankrupt jerks.  Verbal abuse, being damaging to self-esteem and having little empirical support, is a hypocritical choice of persuasion tactic for people who claim to base their views on evidence.

Paradoxically, the ability to rationalize is often used to protect irrational beliefs and practices.  Whether due to a lack of reasoning ability or an unwillingness to face reality, irrational beliefs can be extremely difficult to change.  As Carl Sagan observed:  “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”.  There may not be much of a rational basis even for polite attempts to persuade irrational people.

Those who loathe religion and aim to eradicate it should be aware that education and religiosity are negatively correlated.  Protecting education from the influence of religious fundamentalists is a logical strategic goal.  Yet, direct attacks on religion are threatening to religious people and may lead to more aggressive efforts to influence the curriculum.  Perhaps a more effective approach than attacking religion directly would be to encourage parents to share their religion with their children at home or at their respective places of worship.  After all, religious leaders would be best able to provide this type of instruction.  Secular education may be the single most effective means of promoting critical thinking. 

Ensuring individuals’ freedom of religion is undoubtedly important in securing secularism.  As Michael Shermer eloquently put it: “As long as religion does not threaten science and freedom, we should be respectful and tolerant because our freedom to disbelieve is inextricably bound to the freedom of others to believe.”

Freedom of religion can be a confusing term that people on both sides of religious debates can wrongly think they advocate.  Religious freedom means that individuals have the right to embrace religious beliefs of their own choosing.  It doesn’t mean that parents have the right to systematically indoctrinate their children into their own religion.  On the contrary, it means that their children also have the right to choose their own religious views when they reach the age of reason.  Systematic religious indoctrination that restricts exposure to alternative worldviews limits this freedom.  In this sense, secular schools are more respectful of religious freedom than religious schools.

Personal and vitriolic attacks on religious individuals are also inconsistent with religious freedom.  If we value religious freedom, respect for people’s right to hold irrational beliefs is in order (so long as the beliefs don’t infringe on the rights of others).  Respecting freedom of religion means accepting the fact that not everyone will freely choose our worldview.  If we encourage people to think for themselves, we must accept that others will come to different conclusions.  

Aiming to promote secularism and optimize well-being are more attainable and reasonable goals than aiming to eliminate irrational thinking.  In making secularism and well-being our primary goals, it becomes possible to unite atheists and religious moderates to achieve a common goal.  

When it comes to making decisions about policies and practices that affect everyone, most people support a reason and evidence-based approach.  Even people who abandon empiricism when it comes to certain supernatural entities, generally support evidence-based decision making on matters of public policy.  Also, people who denounce evolution and empiricism seem to have no problem availing themselves of medical treatments that depend on it.  Some see this as ample reason to ridicule evolution deniers.  I see it as common ground.  Whether we’re rational or not, we want to be happy and healthy.  Secular education is important in achieving this. 

No one is completely rational or completely irrational, but there are people who tend to extremes.  The battle over religion and rationality is one that is fought most viciously by people who are strongly polarized on their respective sides.  The battle, however, is more likely to be won by moderates. 

Our potential to improve human well-being ultimately lies not in our ability to maximize rationality, but in our ability to understand human nature and value people with different worldviews.  Success will be most likely if atheists and religioius moderates unite for a common goal; not the eradication of religion, but a securely secular society that optimizes well-being and respects our most cherished freedoms.

Posted by Quinn O'Neill at 12:45 AM | Permalink

Comments

Let me attempt to take up a very abstract problem hinted at in the above, via the question "What would be the value of reason if it didn’t contribute to well-being?".

The essay seems to be concerned with epistemic rationality. I take it that there are reasons of various different kinds. In particular, there are epistemic reasons, moral reasons, and prudential reasons. Consider William James's climber who must believe that he can jump the gorge in order to jump the gorge (the only means of saving his life). The climber may have no reason to believe that he can jump the gorge, in the sense that there is no evidence that favours this belief; but he might have very strong reason to believe this when we consider matters from a prudential perspective, since it will save his life. Hence, there are epistemic reasons, though none favour the climber's believing that he can make the leap, and there are prudential reasons, which do favour this belief.

Set aside moral reasons for the moment; in order to do this, assume that we only make choices that affect ourselves. Is it then true that epistemic rationality has value only insofar as its recommendations coincide with those of prudential rationality? I'm not too clear on what 'has value' might mean here, so I'll substitute another question: is it true that we ought to believe what we have most epistemic reason to believe only if we have most prudential reason to believe this also? This seems to me unlikely: it implies that epistemic reasons are lexically dominated by prudential reasons. In general, lexically dominated ought to be kept out of our normative theory, because they seem excessively superfluous. Furthermore, if one believes in epistemic reasons at all, one should believe that they can sometimes pull their own weight: thus, if believing p would bring one micro-second of the mildest possible pain, but is supported by all of one's available evidence to the highest degree, one ought to believe it, because the epistemic reasons in favour are extremely powerful and the prudential reasons against strikingly weak. To deny this claim seems to me to attribute such a weak strength to epistemic reasons as to deny them any genuine place in normative deliberation. This isn't a knock-down argument, of course, but something of this kind of view seems to me to be required by any view on which there is such a thing as epistemic rationality. Of course, it is then a further question as to how exactly we should weight epistemic reasons vis-a-vis prudential reasons. There is perhaps some weighting according to which your claims nonetheless come out true.

Posted by: Vesuvium | Aug 23, 2010 12:27:22 PM

The most rational approach to religion is to ignore it as a complete waste of time. For most of human history this was not possible, and it is still not possible in much of the world. Luckily, a few brave and intelligence individuals create the enlightenment, a truly amazing accomplishment when you think about the ignorance they had to overcome, and one which can never be taken for granted.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Aug 23, 2010 12:54:23 PM

Her is the key line in this excellent and pragmatic essay: "The most rational objective, then, is not necessarily to have everyone be completely rational but rational to the extent that optimizes well-being."

Posted by: Faze | Aug 23, 2010 4:34:20 PM

I recall a late Mark Twain story, I think it was, where an angel grants someone excellent health and happiness, but the gift turns into a dubious nightmare because of the person's dimentia. A long long life of dementia.

I'd take rationality; one could then rationalize happiness, at some point.

Posted by: odysseus14 | Aug 23, 2010 5:49:00 PM

I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." Douglas Adams

But that's me. I understand and agree that I must respect other people's liberty to choose the awe of ignorance - or delusion. BUT a delusion such as 'there are 72 virgins waiting for the jehadi martyrs in heaven' can be quite costly to this world. And there are numerous other such delusions that religion not only nurtures but gives birth to.

Regarding the moderates: Sam Harris said it best in End of Faith: "While moderation in religion may seem a reasonable position to stake out, in light of all that we have (and have not) learned about the universe, it offers no bulwark against religious extremism and religious violence. The problem that religious moderation poses for all of us is that it does not permit anything critical to be said about the religious literalism. We can not say that fundamentalists are crazy, because they are merely practicing their freedom of belief; we can not even say that they are mistaken in religious terms, because their knowledge of scriptures is generally unrivaled. [...]
Unless the core dogmas of faith are called into question – i.e. that we know there’s a God, and that we know what he wants from us – religious moderation will do nothing to lead us out of wilderness."

Posted by: Vishal | Aug 23, 2010 9:19:21 PM

Not religious moderation, Vishal. Moderation in one's treatment of religious people -- as in, refusing to scorn or bully them, if only because it's unpersuasive and likely to produce blowback. I think Quinn's point is that if you want fundamentalism to recede, you should put more energy into education and less into defeating fundamentalists, because their ultimate defeat is brought about by an increase in the amount of critical thinking they're able to do, not by our knocking their religion.

Really good essay, Quinn. I would say that atheists, secularists and rationalists are a little bedazzled by the intense energy of highly religious people -- as perhaps they should be. They have made the compass error of thinking they should match that energy with their own kind of ferocity, which can take the form of derision. If they were truly rational, they'd drop that, because its emotional utility to them is not worth the failure to persuade. Or is it? Maybe that's the problem.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 23, 2010 10:00:41 PM

"what business is it of yours? Tend to your garden." The best advice to Rationalists and Irrationalists alike.

Posted by: Carlos | Aug 23, 2010 10:15:26 PM

I was struck by the same line of thought as Faze, but for a different reason.

We easily fall into the assumption that our "needs" that drive us to irrationality are eternal. They are not. Human nature has its plasticity, whether it comes through natural selection or, in the future, deliberate intervention.

I have long thought that we will have religion so long as human nature remains the same. But eventually--hate it, dread it, or welcome it--we will re-engineer ourselves, assuming we don't obliterate ourselves first. And when that happens, all bets are off.

Posted by: Jonathan Halvorson | Aug 23, 2010 11:53:57 PM

The problem with rational people is they can "rationalize" just about anything. They also fail to see and admit there own irrationality .

Happiness itself is an irrational pursuit motivated by irrational an contradictory factors. Happiness often comes from dedication to a task. Many religious people are happy as a result of there dedication, happier than secularists in general. Dismissing religion is the easiest maneuver one can make, a gesture that was not invented in the enlightenment . When one makes that easy dismissal of religion, life is instantly easy, because nothing is asked of you and you are accountable for nothing. but then you have no practical reason for doing what you are doing at anytime. Then you have to make some shit up for your self in order to get out of bed in the morning. And then subsequently start to rationalize what you do with your empty existence.

Posted by: ryan | Aug 24, 2010 1:32:53 AM

There is little evidence to suggest that verbal abuse is an effective persuasion tactic when it comes to irrational thinking.

There is also little evidence to suggest that there is very much verbal abuse out there. I will not be the first to point out that Phil Plait did not provide an instance of it.

There seems to be growing acceptance of the assertion that, in the realm of religion, attacking ideas is equivalent to attacking people. Watch for it.

Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Aug 24, 2010 7:23:12 AM

Ken has it right. Where's this bullying and abuse?

Ah, when you're irrational you don't need evidence for your beliefs. If you feel that others are being abusive, then that's justification enough. Who's to say you can't feel your way to the truth? Hey, I think I'm starting to catch on to the logic here.

Posted by: billy | Aug 24, 2010 9:50:24 AM

Elatia,

Point taken. Not religious moderation, but moderation of treatment.

However, if someone believes that the world was created in 6 days, it's really difficult to respect that with unquestioning sincerity. And the moment we (atheist and non-believers) start to question it, they feel that they're being attacked/abused/bullied -- which does happen sometimes, but I think most of the time that feeling is caused by their presumption that their religious dogmas are *supposed* to be respected by others with the reverence.

As H L Mencken said "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and kids smart."

Also, here's Daniel Denette:

"Each reason for belief in God is defensible up to a point, but we need to weigh the indirect side effects of going along with tradition. First, there’s the systematic hypocrisy that poisons discourse, and even more important, our vulnerability to those who abuse the 'reverence' with which we are supposed to respond to their indulgences. We can continue to respect the good intentions of those who persist in professing belief in God, but we’ll be doing them a favor if we stop pretending that we respect the arguments they use to sustain these fantasies."

Posted by: Vishal | Aug 24, 2010 10:38:21 AM

He makes a few good points but most of this essay is cotton candy. Its not serious enough to be philosophy, its not artistic enough to work unconsciously, its just fluff for well meaning nice people...which is OK. Well-meaning nice people need their kicks too. But as the writer points out, it takes all kinds to make the world go round. The author can now go and play in his playpen for a few hours while the various psychos and "leaders" go about their business of maximizing whatever they maximize when they screw people, grab more, break rules, sacrifice themselves, create amazing art while their mother dies alone of a painful disease, lust after innocent children or flagellate themselves while drinking far too much....

Posted by: omar | Aug 24, 2010 10:46:32 AM

To Quinn O'Neill,
Hear, hear! Well reasoned, well put, well written!

Posted by: Frances Burton | Aug 24, 2010 11:08:38 AM

Vishal,

Your long quotation from Daniel Dennett --

"Each reason for belief in God is defensible up to a point, but we need to weigh the indirect side effects of going along with tradition. First, there’s the systematic hypocrisy that poisons discourse, and even more important, our vulnerability to those who abuse the 'reverence' with which we are supposed to respond to their indulgences. We can continue to respect the good intentions of those who persist in professing belief in God, but we’ll be doing them a favor if we stop pretending that we respect the arguments they use to sustain these fantasies."

Two problems with this. Prof. Dennett styles religious people as "professing to believe." I understand he can't know what they really believe, but I'm sure he'd prefer not to be described by them as one who merely professes atheism. And, he would not like his disbeliefs to be described as "fantasies" by the same believers who find him delusional. After all, the accuracy of his disbeliefs is very far from being demonstrable to others, as self-apparent as it may be to him.

We have religious freedom in this country, and freedom of speech. That means the fundie on the bus seat next to you is as legally entitled to his beliefs as you are to the speech that derides them. So, please understand what you're doing -- making use of the freedom to mock. It's not very educational, but it might make you feel better. That puts you uncomfortably close to the airport proselytizers who simply WILL convert you, if at all they can, when -- if they could but see -- they were only letting themselves in for some eye-rolling.

Respecting the legal rights of someone to hold views that are radically opposed to your own is different from respecting those views. As a non-religious person, I would be lots happier if the conflation of rights and beliefs, in just this way, were not so widespread. I think that trafficking in both certainties and hate speech ought to be left to highly religious people with a need to other those who disagree with them. Rationalists do no need to take a leaf from that book.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 24, 2010 4:30:09 PM

"What would be the value of reason if it didn’t contribute to well-being?"

"Reason" has survival value. The fundamental purpose of animals is survival.

"Delusions can provide comfort."

And death provides the ultimate cessation of pain. "She's in a better place now." versus "She's no longer in pain."

"To expect people to be perfectly rational is to ask us to defy our own nature."

Strawman? Why is that word "perfectly" in that sentence? I certainly expect most people to be reasonably rational most of the time. But I don't have to drive a car in Boston. And I don't have such expectations on a Sunday morning. So your sentence with "perfectly" in it is perfectly silly.

"but the nastiness is probably counterproductive."

Your opinion is backed up by all of those scholarly studies, right? And all of Phil's examples. What? None? Blog comments calling idiots by their rightfully earned noun? Oh, the nastiness of blog commenters. How can they be so mean to irrational, deluded people who are writing silly things in order to maximize their happiness?

"It doesn’t mean that parents have the right to systematically indoctrinate their children into their own religion."

Where did this rational sentence come from? I thought you were comfortable with the Sunday delusion where parents take their children to be indoctrinated. "Jesus loves me - this I know" is so comforting.

"Personal and vitriolic attacks on religious individuals are also inconsistent with religious freedom."

Ok, I'm convinced. I will no longer go to a random church on Sunday morning and subject the minister and congregation to personal and vitriolic attacks. On the other hand, when someone writes nonsense about religion on a blog, ...

"it becomes possible to unite atheists and religious moderates to achieve a common goal."

And just what "common goal" are we trying to achieve? You are long on wishful thinking and short on specifics.

Posted by: Mike McCants | Aug 24, 2010 4:53:51 PM

@Ken and Billy:

My claim that atheists and skeptics can be nasty is based on observation. As an admin for a pro-evolution Facebook group and an avid reader of ScienceBlogs, I see it often. If you don’t believe me, I suggest the following experiment: The next time PZ Myers, of the ScienceBlog Pharyngula, posts something related to religion, post a comment in defense of religion and see what kinds of responses you get.

Some examples from ScienceBlogs:

“Holy blabbering moronic idiot Mark Twit @ 32! Was it your freaking imaginary god that made you an insane cretin or was it our wonderful evolution! All your invoking of your non-existent god will do you no good! You are an idiot and you will remain an idiot until evolution deems it necessary to remove you from the gene pool. Let's see this shit god of yours; come on bring it down and prevent us from wiping you and your sleaze retards from your cesspool postings. Not only is your god imaginary and useless, your only recourse is to commit suicide and remove yourselves from the gene pool and save our evolution from morphing you into shit to add to your shit god.”
Holbach, Pharungula

“Stephen, you're an idiot. That was not a great discussion at all. That was gigantically stupid fucking comment. How about you go tie a millstone around your neck and find a long pier into a deep lake and jump off it. You are easily the biggest idiot I've seen here recently.”
Rev. BigDumbChimp, Pharyngula

“Louden, you ignorant fucking doofus fool from Plano, Texas: Credulity and superstition will always be around -You are walking proof of that. It's not the fault of scientists but your own fault (and your parents, and the schools and church, etc.) that you are an irrational religiotard. Just shut the fuck up, you compartmentalizing Texas hick.”
E.V., Pharyngula

“You are stupid. I'm sorry, I know it's hard to accept, but you are. I realize this thread is pretty much dead, but I have to tell you that it is people like you who are creating pretty much every problem in the world right now. If you talk to anyone who actually pays attention to the world and reads from more than biased, equally stupid sources, you would find out how damaging and blindingly stupid you really are.
Damien, Denialism Blog

“Meghan, to be succinct, you are an idiot.”
Jason, Applied Statistics

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that the recipients of these comments aren’t idiots or that nothing should be done about potentially harmful, irrational beliefs. I’m saying there’s no evidence that being deliberately offensive is an effective persuasion tactic (excepting some anecdotes). Because of the potential harm of such beliefs (outbreaks of preventable diseases, compromised science education, etc), it’s important that our approach is effective. If being deliberately offensive is counterproductive, it too is harmful.

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 24, 2010 5:30:41 PM

Elatia equates Dennett's use of "professing belief" instead of "believing" and description of believers' fantasies as "fantasies" to, just two paragraphs later, hate speech. Amazing.

Quinn, that really surprises me that you could find examples of random commenters on blogs calling each other idiots. I suppose I have to concede your point now.

Posted by: billy | Aug 24, 2010 7:13:11 PM

billy, I don't equate those things. You, in your reading of what I wrote, have inferred that I do -- wrongly, but the inference is yours -- and have supposed out loud that I do. Again, without accuracy. Feel free, however, to experience amazement at your own misperceptions -- mine certainly amaze me!

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 24, 2010 7:38:36 PM

@Quinn, I trust you understand that when someone questions the ubiquity of verbal abuse, they mean other than in the comment threads of Pharynglula.

Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Aug 24, 2010 8:51:54 PM

Sorry for the misspelling.

Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Aug 24, 2010 8:53:16 PM

I'll forgive Quinn for only mentioning the meanness of unbelievers; I'll assume that the point of the article is that more rational people can be expected to understand a rational approach to living among believers.

But I do want to stipulate that, though of course we've all seen examples of verbal abuse like those he presents, there is plenty of abuse going the other way, and not just verbal abuse.

I think the argument he makes is very important, but it's maybe helpful to realize that 'religious' people who are intolerant do not really believe what they profess, and that's why they become so angry so easily. They're already on edge, may even feel guilty. So they become defensive. Sort of the way latent homosexuals can feel driven to attack those who aren't ashamed to be who they are.

Ryan,
I really disagree that seeking happiness is irrational. It's completely practical, as is loving others. And I hope you don't mean to say that everyone who doesn't have faith in a god is choosing to be dismissive of religion.
Also I really resent the idea that my life and pursuits are not worth doing just because they aren't sanctioned by a being I can't perceive.

As you said, happiness can come from dedication to a task; that is a source of happiness for believers and non-believers alike. Common ground.
But when you say, "The problem with rational people is they can "rationalize" just about anything. They also fail to see and admit there[sic] own irrationality" I think that's way off, unfounded, and an easy stereotype. Jumping to generalisations like that is truly "the easiest manoever one can make".

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 24, 2010 11:31:03 PM

In all of this commenting, I'm a little surprised no-one has interrogated the terms "happiness" or "well-being" a bit more deeply. While I have a certain sense of those terms myself, filtered through my recent studies in philosophy (as in the ancient Greeks' term "eudaimonea"), and I'm also sure that each person has some specific idiosyncratic sense of them, I wonder if there isn't an unsatisfactory vagueness to them, so that there's a certain degree of unrecognized or unacknowledged divergence in meaning between all of our individual particular usages of them: i.e., we think we mean the same thing, but may not.

My first thought is that perhaps the two terms shouldn't be used interchangeably. Let's agree for a moment to define well-being as something including some or all of this constellation: survival; health; longevity; a sense of satisfaction or accomplishment; loving and being loved; belonging; or any of a host of other social and biological needs being met, and last but not least, fulfillment of one's cognitive potential, including what we call rationality, but also endeavours like artistic creativity. (I'm a musician and composer among other things.) Still vague in its encompassment, but at least containing some particulars.

Things that may contribute to one's well-being may not, in the short or even longer term, make one particularly happy. A trivial example is exercise when one is out of shape. I might be happier just staying on the couch. But reason, with its ability to project future possibilities, tells me that my happiness with my status quo is probably irrelevant to my on-going and developing well-being.

When I was a teenager and had run away from the boarding school I was in, and my parents wanted to know what it was exactly I wanted, I said "I want to be happy." In retrospect, I had little idea what that meant or how it was I intended to achieve it. I only knew that I was unhappy with my situation as it was.

Later in life, I've come to the provisional conclusion that happiness isn't so much a goal as it is a side effect of living well, of being engaged with one's work and one's community, among other things, and that happiness or unhappiness are more to be seen as action-motivating emotional states (I have in mind Damasio's work on the role of emotion in cognition and particularly in normative stances and the decisions which flow from them) whether or not those actions contribute to one's well-being. Happiness as a goal makes less sense to me now. To sum up: well-being is teleological; happiness is not. A feeling of happiness by itself may not always be a reliable indicator of well-being. Rationality may sometimes need to override one's feeling of happiness or unhappiness in order for one's well-being to be achieved.

Posted by: Kai | Aug 24, 2010 11:34:50 PM

Alice, you're quite right. Religious people can be every bit as nasty, but I wouldn't try to convince them to change tactics on the basis that they're being irrational.

That said, I'm not sure that trying to reason with those who fancy themselves rational is very useful either. I think Elatia hit the nail on the head in her first comment:
"If they were truly rational, they'd drop that, because its emotional utility to them is not worth the failure to persuade. Or is it? Maybe that's the problem."

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 25, 2010 2:31:20 AM

Elatia,

>> Respecting the legal rights of someone to hold views that are radically opposed to your own is different from respecting those views.

Sure. I am not debating or questioning the legal rights for someone to believe in anything.

My point was: the believers can't expect the same amount of reverence (for their beliefs) from others. And if a mere lack-of-reverence seems like mockery to them (as it often does), they better get used to that.

Posted by: Vishal | Aug 25, 2010 9:55:40 AM

Delusions can provide comfort. They can give us confidence, hope, or a sense of purpose. Superstitions can improve athletic performance, and psychics and astrologers can help people deal with the discomfort of not knowing what the future holds

Wow. What a condescending pile of paternalistic garbage. If I were a believer, I would find that much more insulting than being told my beliefs aren't true.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 11:13:45 AM

Vishal, I based my observation on what you wrote --

"However, if someone believes that the world was created in 6 days, it's really difficult to respect that with unquestioning sincerity."

No one asks you to respect that belief with any level of sincerity, only to respect that the people who do believe it have a right to their belief. The matchless value of freedom of speech, which is tied to freedom of conscience, is this: people who are stupid and wrong have the same rights as you. If the people who were considered benighted and error prone 400 years ago had enjoyed such rights, Giordano Bruno might not have been burned to death by the Inquisition. If they had had those rights 800 years ago, Roger Bacon might not have been hounded by the Church to his grave, his great mind and soul foully wearied of science. Appalling political shifts can determine whose beliefs are seen as dark and threatening, but if the rights of individuals to their beliefs are protected, there may not be bloodshed.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 11:14:56 AM

No one asks you to respect that belief with any level of sincerity, only to respect that the people who do believe it have a right to their belief.

Has he given any indication that he hasn't? Has ANY prominent atheist given that indication?

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 11:18:48 AM

Dave, tone is an indication. And a person's tone can tell you where he might be putting his energy.

Here's what I mean. If I have the misfortune to be seated on an airplane next to a fundie who feels like talking about it, and, on discovering I'm not into his belief system, he rolls his eyes and says it's so sad: I'm not Saved, and it's so easy to be Saved if only one makes the commitment, how is that different from from my telling him that an uptick in his critical faculty could save him, too -- from an awful lot of malarkey? He wants me to feel damned, and I want him to feel stupid. Does he like it better that I _am_ damned than that I _could_ be Saved? Do I like him better as an object of derision than as a not very bright person who yet struggles to think for himself? That goes to our personal capacities for animus, and to how black-hearted we are beneath the philosophical differences. But Jeremy Bentham, if he were seated in the row behind us on the airplane, might well lean over to tell us we were neither of us making good use of our time. And he would be right. If you want to deliver a setback to the fundie agenda, you won't waste scorn on individuals who take religion to a rabid pitch, but will take time and energy and money to protect the rights of children to science education in public schools.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 11:48:26 AM

Elatia,

Yes. It boils down to what I wrote previously:

"The most rational approach to religion is to ignore it as a complete waste of time".

For some reason, anything to do with religion is a hot topic on 3QD. Anyway, it is easily ignored.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Aug 25, 2010 12:01:44 PM

Here's what I mean. If I have the misfortune to be seated on an airplane next to a fundie who feels like talking about it, and, on discovering I'm not into his belief system, he rolls his eyes and says it's so sad: I'm not Saved, and it's so easy to be Saved if only one makes the commitment, how is that different from from my telling him that an uptick in his critical faculty could save him, too -- from an awful lot of malarkey?

That didn't answer my question at all. Nothing in that example has to do with disrespecting someone's right to have personal beliefs.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 12:09:50 PM

Elatia: Then what hate speech are you talking about?

Kai: Well said.

Posted by: billy | Aug 25, 2010 12:27:39 PM

I'd love to ignore religion, but I'm not willing to give up the fight for same-sex marriage, legal abortion, access to birth control, good sex education, and science-based medicine, which means I have to engage with it.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 12:34:47 PM

billy, you have said elsewhere that I bore you in our interactions, so I'm holding back on answering you when I believe the way I have already answered you needs no exegesis. That IS boring! If you produce a new thought, and I have time to engage with you, I will. But sparingly, because I think I'm not your cup of fur. In any case, we have no serious disagreements except as regards how people who do disagree with us have a right to be treated.

Dave, what I am talking about is the way personality and the need to feel superior may inform discussion. If we looked at those matters head on, we might see that a great deal of discourse that ain't goin' nowhere is based not on rational but emotionally toned differences between people. Accepting this is rational; cloaking it with rationalism and going with the animus anyway is not. Remembering that we all now have the kind of legal rights that would have saved Giordano Bruno's life is a useful thing to do, if we want to direct our energies reasonably. And, "engaging with religion" is not obligatory if what you want to do is to help keep safe the rights of children to be educated to develop their critical faculties. You would then be engaging with the collective might of people whose minds are affected for the worse by religion, as their power could translate into legislation that would sicken you. That's a different battle, rationally seen.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 1:14:56 PM

Elatia: I assume from your response that you don't actually have any examples of hate speech. Next time search for evidence before you make your claims!

Posted by: billy | Aug 25, 2010 1:37:38 PM

Elatia, you have still not in any way backed up your implication that anyone on the irreligious side is trying to take away people's right to believe what they want. Expressing contempt, anger, or disgust does not threaten anyone's rights. We can argue about how effective it is, but that's not the topic you brought up.

Telling someone "I think you're wrong, and here's why" isn't bigotry, it's respect.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 1:46:09 PM

Elatia,

What I understand you to be saying is, in a battle for good education, which we know is a present, and difficult one, e.i. the Texas School Board mess, that our energies should be spent engaging with like-minded people, and emphasizing the benefits of science- (and history-) based curricula, rather than pointing out differences of belief systems. I think that is right. A friend of mine who's a tireless organizer said, "We don't have to convince EVERYBODY of our position, we just have to convince ENOUGH people."

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 25, 2010 1:48:07 PM

For some of us, good education is only part of the battle. If that's the battle you're fighting, then Alice de Tocqueville's approach is probably effective.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 1:50:52 PM

billy, this is me, waving bye-bye on the topic, and saying you are welcome to your perceptions. We'll cordially butt heads some other day.

Dave, I am old enough to have been a kid in the immediate post- Civil Rights Era, in the South, yet. Whites who didn't want to drink from the same water fountain as newly enfranchised black people modeled disgust, contempt and anger at the very proposition -- that proposition being, usually, embodied by a thirsty black person at a formerly white drinking fountain. Whites like this were not attempting to arrogate unto themselves the right to prevent a black person drinking water there, but it can sometimes be a fine line to walk, expressing disgust, contempt and anger while respecting the rights of those who provoke those emotions -- rightly or wrongly. People who were less than one eighth Jewish in the 30s in Germany, too, might have had feelings about the legality of their situation, and whether the disgust, anger and contempt of non-Jews made them feel threatened despite legal protections. Very narrowly, you can do a lot that doesn't interfere with legal rights, but that does suborn the atmosphere those rights are supposed to secure.

Alice and all others, the real problems fundies create are not aesthetic ones -- logic to make you puke, etc. That's a distraction. The harm they do is in forming voting blocs -- 20% of the Ohio electorate in 2004 was fundies who previously had not bothered to vote. As a group that is increasing in size and organization and power, they are horrifying. You may not want to bother to take their delusions away, one by one, but that's exactly how they want to remove your freedoms, including your freedom of inquiry. It's resoundingly irrational to get in individual arguments with them about religion, but it is highly rational to organize to defeat their political agenda. The energy that is needful to the latter can be dissipated in the former. This is precisely where your anger, contempt and disgust are interfering with rights -- your rights. Sure, help yourself to potshots at very religious people, but understand that as an emotional release, not as a victory over ignorance.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 3:40:17 PM

It's resoundingly irrational to get in individual arguments with them about religio

On the contrary. Those fundies have kids, friends, and relatives who can overhear that conversation, and it can get them thinking. How do you propose we overcome their power as a voting bloc if we don't try to convince them to change the way they think? They are already pretty darn close to a majority. Just outvoting them won't work, because there are more of them than there are of us.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 3:57:34 PM

And fundies are only part of the threat. Catholics and Mormons aren't fundies, but they provided the bulk of the funding on the campaigns against prop 8 and provide much of the political opposition to abortion and birth control.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 3:59:56 PM

^Of course, that should say FOR prop 8.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 4:00:26 PM

The writer states;

"We are predisposed to delusional thinking because our brains have evolved this way; it was evolutionarily advantageous. It is human nature to be somewhat delusional. To expect people to be perfectly rational is to ask us to defy our own nature. It isn’t reasonable"

First point (as previously stated) humans have the ability to act in ways that are not 'their nature' (think rape and murder to start) so this argument is meaningless.

Secondly I take issue with he verbal trick of setting up a Straw Man of a person who is perfectly rational. No one is stating that such a goal is achievable so please stop pretending that it is.

Posted by: Wendell | Aug 25, 2010 4:55:33 PM

Dave, I ask you to consider the difference between argument and persuasion. The battle for hearts and minds will not be won by people quibbling over metaphysics with the kids looking on. Also, plenty of people who think for themselves are yet religious, many of them Catholics -- look at Garry Wills. For me and maybe for you, the dividing line is between those believers who want religion -- their religion -- to play a prominent role in public life, subordinating science, education, reproductive choice, free speech and civil rights for gays to faith as they define it, and those believers who do not. That's the only difference that really matters, and it matters exceedingly. There are lots of religious people with a strong conviction their faith is a private affair -- they are not the problem, however much you disagree with them. Rational secularists and humanists will choose organizing against the Religious Right over quarreling with religious individuals. As you suggest, it's getting harder. So it's where the energy should go.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 5:02:22 PM

Dave, I ask you to consider the difference between argument and persuasion. The battle for hearts and minds will not be won by people quibbling over metaphysics with the kids looking on.

Argument and persuasion are both important, and they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, plenty of people who think for themselves are yet religious, many of them Catholics -- look at Garry Wills.

And yet he willingly belongs to an organization that opposes gay rights, womens rights, and reproductive rights and that promotes authoritarianism.

For me and maybe for you, the dividing line is between those believers who want religion -- their religion -- to play a prominent role in public life, subordinating science, education, reproductive choice, free speech and civil rights for gays to faith as they define it, and those believers who do not.

Those few believers who do not are giving aid and comfort to those who do by subscribing to the idea - and passing it to their children - that believing something based on tradition or an old book is a good idea.

I don't see the distinction as all that important. The distinction that matters to me is between believing things based on evidence and believing things based on faith, authority, tradition, and emotion. The former is good for individuals and society, the latter is bad.

That's the only difference that really matters, and it matters exceedingly. There are lots of religious people with a strong conviction their faith is a private affair.

And they are vastly outnumbered by the believers who don't.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 6:45:04 PM

Look, if you want to put energy into fixing the symptoms of irrationality, that's great. I think it's an important thing to do. But I think it's also important to put energy into fighting the root cause - the idea that holding irrational beliefs is noble and good for people.

Posted by: dave | Aug 25, 2010 6:53:15 PM

Religious people don't have the right to have their magical belief treated with greater respect than they treat other magical beliefs.

If people were as private with their supernatural beliefs as they are with their fetishes, then we could assume most people were rational, and we wouldn't have to worry about accidentally hurting the feelings of the indoctrinated. Not all of us are comfortable with showing deference to lies purported to be "divine truths".


Faith and feelings are not ways of knowing anything true, and I think it's dangerous to give lip-service to the idea that they are.

I think it's downright dickish to suggest that there is a cabal of militant atheists that are running around harming some "cause" when no one has provided a scintilla of evidence that this is so. (Mooney's evidence turned out to be a complete fraud.) I'm also tired of the silly implication that outspoken atheists are less moral, less feeling, or less creative than others. The evidence shows otherwise. I also doubt that their critics are better at spreading rational thought or well-being than those they are criticizing either.

I consider the outspoken atheists to be more honest than their more accommodating peers. They aren't afraid to treat religious superstitions the same way they treat other superstitions.

For humanity to grow up, someone needs to lead. The author can kiss as much theist ass as she wants and imagine herself as being more successful in facilitating some goal than those who she thinks are "doing it wrong", but until evidence is provided for this belief, I'll dismiss it as unsupportable as the invisible undetectable entities people feel saved for believing in.

Posted by: Sister Chromatid | Aug 25, 2010 7:17:06 PM

Two problems with this. Prof. Dennett styles religious people as "professing to believe." I understand he can't know what they really believe, but I'm sure he'd prefer not to be described by them as one who merely professes atheism. And, he would not like his disbeliefs to be described as "fantasies" by the same believers who find him delusional. After all, the accuracy of his disbeliefs is very far from being demonstrable to others, as self-apparent as it may be to him.

Just one thing though. Being a non-believer (unless one was a citizen of the erstwhile Soviet bloc) has no upside to it in most of the world. It is a bit like "choosing" to be gay in an overwhelmingly heterosexual world when you know you will be subjected to derision, suspicion and shut out of many a conversation. Most of us who don't believe, really don't believe.

Pretending to believe on the other hand is still an expedient thing to do. It has many advantages. For example, you can hardly expect to be elected to a public office in the US unless you are believed to be a believer by the voters.

As for the respect that believers show for other people's beliefs (or its lack) just pay attention to the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate. And no, not all of the 60% of NYers who oppose it on the basis of what they think the Muslims believe, are fundies.

Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 25, 2010 7:41:54 PM

Quinn O'Neill - you're basing all this on comments on blogs and at Facebook? Seriously?

Posted by: Ophelia Benson | Aug 25, 2010 8:12:17 PM

I meant "pretending" to be a non-believer has no up side to it.

Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 25, 2010 8:13:09 PM

'But irrationality has its perks. Delusions can provide comfort. They can give us confidence, hope, or a sense of purpose.' So what if it provides comfort, so do drugs - just because something makes us feel good does not make it good for us..

Posted by: Dawn | Aug 25, 2010 9:37:46 PM

Dave, who are the most persuasive people you know? (Knowing by reputation is fine.) What do they have in common? Only one or two provisos -- they can't be people who believe as you do, because that would leave you with very little feeling for how they personally overcome objections to their points of view, and they can't be role models, because that conflates admiration-worthiness with persuasiveness. If any of the most persuasive people you know are able to persuade reluctant others to their side via derision, crushing superiority, and blindness to the diversity of human experience -- well, I guess I want their phone numbers!

Ruchira, that's a very good point, but I think Dave's quotation from Prof. Dennett supports both your reading and mine. If he does mean to make a point about people professing belief to get along and get promoted, he wouldn't be wrong, would he?

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 25, 2010 9:40:07 PM

Quin sez:

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that the recipients of these comments aren’t idiots or that nothing should be done about potentially harmful, irrational beliefs. I’m saying there’s no evidence that being deliberately offensive is an effective persuasion tactic (excepting some anecdotes).

that's because those claiming this have NEVER actually LOOKED for evidence.

they just assume, probably because that's what their parents told them, that ridicule is ineffectual.

to that I simply say, know your damn history:

http://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/ridicule-an-instrument-in-the-war-on-terrorism

Posted by: Ichthyic | Aug 26, 2010 1:32:42 AM

"Personal and vitriolic attacks on religious individuals are also inconsistent with religious freedom."

It's dissappointing to read yet another one-sided slant in the on-going "atheists should play nice" school of thinking. Religious freedom does not mean immunity from scrutiny and criticism - either the ideas, or the individuals that holds them. The clear fact that delusional beliefs have limited benefits for some does not give these beliefs a free ride when they can (and often do) lead to legislation and actions that limit or harm others.

Why single out "nasty" atheists when a trawl through any of the discussion boards finds plenty of believers threatenening hellfire and damnation and even death to horrible apostates. I'm fine with holding rational thinkers to a higher standard, but it is very hard to see any line you are drawing between attack on the idea and attack on the person. It seems you don't want the idea attacked (indeed you feel happy they persist) whilst we would agree in the futility of denigrating the person that holds them.

And as for dave...

"Look, if you want to put energy into fixing the symptoms of irrationality, that's great. I think it's an important thing to do. But I think it's also important to put energy into fighting the root cause - the idea that holding irrational beliefs is noble and good for people." Couldn't have put it better myself.

By the way Quinn, are Francis Collins' religious beliefs a private matter of no consequence or concern, or are they fair game for scrutiny and criticism, given that he finds it hard to shut up about them?

Posted by: Barry | Aug 26, 2010 8:56:31 AM

To clarify, my arguments are against personal attacks and verbal abuse; not against criticism of religion. When I quoted Michael Shermer, referring to “respect and tolerance”, I understood this to mean respect for religious freedom. There’s a difference between respecting people’s freedom to choose their own beliefs and respecting the beliefs they choose.

Criticism of religious beliefs is generally compatible with respect for religious freedom. Presenting facts and arguments that people can use to draw their own conclusions doesn’t restrict their freedom to do so. Verbal abuse, on the other hand, doesn't respect this freedom. A religious person shouldn’t have to pretend to be an atheist to avoid personal attacks. Abuse is coercive. You can't simultaneously respect people's right to choose their own beliefs and punish them when they choose wrong.

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 26, 2010 11:03:12 AM

A religious person shouldn’t have to pretend to be an atheist to avoid personal attacks.

Outside of the Soviet bloc and Mao's China, where else and how often have you seen this happen, Quinn?

Have you on the other hand, met atheists and agnostics who keep their mouths shut in public to avoid hectoring and yes, abuse, sometimes even within their own families? I have been in numerous situations with friends, neighbors and even at school events for my kids where I have had to quietly tolerate the prayers of others. In some situations (like weddings and funerals), I knew what to expect. In others, I was blindsided. For example, a dinner to which I was invited and had to participate in holding hands and sit through the host saying grace. I have been at community events where before I knew it, I was asked to stand up and join in loudly articulated prayers. Nobody bothered to ask if I wanted to "Thank the Lord" although when dinner was served, I was given the choice of salmon or chicken! Of course, I didn't get up and abuse anyone for their presumption of my faith or at least of my tolerance. I had to "pretend."

This abuse you speak of? It just doesn't happen outside of blogs and discussion forums. Atheists are NOT going around abusing believers. They don't barge into churches and temples to disrupt other people's faith based practices. They don't hold loud demonstrations outside places of worship. For goodness' sake, I don't even bang the door on the evangelical early risers who knock on my door on Saturday mornings to save my soul. You are imagining and looking at things from the Ivory Tower of academic discussions. The believers on the other hand routinely stick their noses where they don't belong in real life - in school curricula, medical decisions and even military funerals. Elected officials are required to wear their faith on their sleeves and invoke god after every national tragedy and triumph whether or not they "really" believe. And if they don't, their faith comes into question. Either they are suspected of being "godless" and therefore untrustworthy and even worse, "A Muslim." So who is having to pretend?

Let's therefore not "pretend" that we live in a secular society and atheists are high handedly calling all the shots and abusing believers who are cowering in the corner and "pretending" to not believe in order not to incur the wrath of atheists. This is truly laughable.

Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 26, 2010 12:21:43 PM

Just on an empirical level, religion is linked with poor societal health.
The question is, do sick societies gravitate toward religion, or does religion create sick societies?
Here is the data:
link

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 26, 2010 12:47:49 PM

What Ruchira said.

Something like what she's describing happened to me a couple of weekends ago. At a public, town-sponsored event, at an outdoor venue across the street from my house (therefore I had no choice whatsoever about putting up with it), between the headline act and the fireworks, a Christian folk group sang and talked about Jesus and God and how we all ought to take their attitude toward intimacy with same.

Then there's this kind of thing (US soldiers punished for not going to a Christian concert):

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/8/19/113223/843

And I doubt I'll live to see the day when an atheist who admits it out loud is a viable candidate for president.

Posted by: JanieM | Aug 26, 2010 3:51:27 PM

Ruchira:

I said:
"A religious person shouldn’t have to pretend to be an atheist to avoid personal attacks."
I'm talking about why it's inappropriate to verbally abuse religious people. Verbally abusing someone you don't agree with is an attempt to coerce the disagreeable person to the preferred choice. If the person adopts a different perspective, he will have done so for the wrong reasons. When and where verbal abuse of religious people happens is irrelevant; I've presented a reason *why* it's inappropriate when and where it does happen. [Of course, it's also inappropriate when religious people are abusive.]

I's been my impression that verbal abuse is fairly common on various blogs and evolution related forums. Given the popularity of such sites, this isn't insignificant. However, my argument is that verbal abuse isn't a rational approach to irrationality, and this doesn't depend on how frequently it occurs.

You're conflating your going with the flow with having to. If you're invited to a dinner and your guests decide to say a prayer before the meal, it's your right to not participate. It's not a violation of your religious freedom unless they insist that you participate. You don't have to pray, but you do have to put up with the fact that they pray. You can't expect them to not pray to make you feel comfortable any more than you would lead a prayer in your own home to make them feel comfortable. Neither party should have to pretend to be something they're not. Things can be a bit awkward, but if you enjoy their company it may be worth it.

The voting situation is unfortunate, but it's the nature of democracy. If skeptics comprised 90% of the population, a Christian hoping to be elected would be wise to keep his Christian views a secret. Religion aside, a candidate would be wise to practice civility.

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 26, 2010 7:03:06 PM

Elatia,

I said,

"What I understand you to be saying is, in a battle for good education, which we know is a present, and difficult one, e.i. the Texas School Board mess, that our energies should be spent engaging with like-minded people, and emphasizing the benefits of science- (and history-) based curricula, rather than pointing out differences of belief systems. I think that is right." So...., I think you have me mixed up with someone else in addressing this to me ;

Sure, help yourself to potshots at very religious people, but understand that as an emotional release, not as a victory over ignorance."

I don't believe I've taken potshots at very religious people. I realize it does no good, and also there are religious people whom I admire very much.

But they aren't people who are trying to get creationism taught in school or who are screaming "No mosque here!'

The thing is, bigotry, hatred and isolation of others because of their beliefs, race or nationality (not to mention killing them to get their resources) ISN'T even Christian. And, guess what! It's not Islam, either.
We needn't claim to be able to look into someone's soul; we can judge by their actions, which in the case of these bigots, betray that they do not believe in the things Christ is supposed to have said. This is fair for anyone. If someone claims to be a scientist, but follows no scientific protocols, she's not a scientist. I, like many of us, I'm sure, was fairly well indoctrinated in Christianity, and frankly, I'd be quite happy if what I believe is Christianity was more widely practised, not because I believe in Christ, I don't, but because I find that much of what he's supposed to have preached is true and good. That is, if he actually did preach certain things, it might be because they are true, not that they are true because he preached them.
But no matter what I believe or don't believe, I know enough about it to point out that what fundamentalists are about is not Christianity, it's something else. Fundamentalists are not internally consistent. If you pay attention to them, you'll notice that they almost never quote from the New Testament, which is, after all, the part of the book he's IN.
I think that is one way that we should confront these neurotics. In the nicest possible way, of course, but firmly. Challenge them to follow Christ, if they believe in that.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 26, 2010 7:40:04 PM

Alice,

The remark of mine you refer to was made in a paragraph headed "Alice and all others," and was not meant to suggest any particular person was having a field day insulting the very religious. My point was that it availed little, except in the way of emotional release, to object to them in their hearing on philosophical or aesthetic grounds. In the private sphere, good manners can be defined how you like. In the public sphere, voting, not rhetoric, is all that matters.

Some people here are probably of an age to have read Gore Vidal's _Messiah_ during the era it came out. The Messiah was a proselytizing atheist, and people were floored and relieved to hear his message. We all thought it was futuristic then. It still is, only it's further away than it used to be.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 26, 2010 8:50:05 PM

Without working definitions of "empiricism", "well-being" and above all "reason", it is impossible to know what this essay is even saying.

Several times you seem to equate "Reason" with "true belief", other times with "belief in science", other times with "not being delusional", and even once directly link it with atheism. I honestly hope that you can see (now that I've pointed them out) how unhelpful such associations are.

I would recommend reading up on the practical reason/theoretical reason distinction...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/practical-reason/#PraTheRea

...then delving into the various conceptions/components that fall under each heading. You will then see that casually throwing this word around (as though it signified a simple, unified, uncontroversially distinct thing) is not productive.

Posted by: Joe | Aug 27, 2010 1:07:59 AM

Joe, that's a very useful link, but if a writer must posit working definitions of those items -- well being, empiricism, and reason -- to be read with understanding by you, then it must be tough on you to read, period. I put it to you that yet another term we all use in the hope others know what we mean is "working definition." If I said I didn't take your meaning of "working definition" because you seemed to equate it with too many associations it might not remotely give rise to, so that your remarks would remain unclear until you'd read up, might you not think I was trying to win a high school debate? Please tell me how what you have written here is different from that.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 27, 2010 2:23:25 AM

"But just as we need scientists and other professionals who have a proclivity for reason and empiricism, we need artists and people who feel their way through the world. Such people may be better able to create great works of art that move us on a non-rational level. We are emotional animals; people who understand this aspect of our nature well have much to contribute."

I am really annoyed that you are implicitly stating that people need to be irrational in order to produce great works of art. And to suggest that someone who is not rational is not also emotional? These are utterly untrue claims. Well, at least with you we can see where the line is drawn on rationality, reason and evidence. It stops where your accommodating religious beliefs starts. How pathetic.

Posted by: Thomathy | Aug 27, 2010 10:31:05 AM

I am really annoyed that you are implicitly stating that people need to be irrational in order to produce great works of art. And to suggest that someone who is not rational is not also emotional?

Bingo! Thomathy, I have heard so many "moderate" accommodationists of irrationality say this to me that I have stopped counting. They draw this false bright line demarcating rationality from emotion, awe, admiration and empathy when there is no evidence whatsoever that rational folks lack any of those qualities. I challenge religionists to showcase their moral and creative standard bearers and I bet I will find an equal number on the rationalist side who will measure up. Like Quinn, I have numerous friends and family members on both sides of the religious divide. To this day, I have found none on the rationalist side who are lacking in the humane and artistic qualities that Quinn has summarily awarded exclusively to the irrationals. Very shortsighted thinking on his part and plainly wrong.

Also Quinn, how old are you? Do you seriously believe that I could have just "refused" to participate in the hand holding prayer that my host subjected me to without enquiring about my willingness to do so, in order to retain my personal freedom? Do you see the level of awkwardness that would have resulted from that action? In fact it was my rational thinking and my maturity that led me to pretend and “go along to get along." I was being respectful for something I don’t really respect, don't you understand? I know that many people pray at their dinner table. I just didn’t know that this one did and would ask me to participate without my permission. Conversely, have you ever in your life heard of an atheist leading a paean to Darwin or Marx at the dinner table with his religious guests? You see, our customs are already set from time immemorial to accommodate religious gestures in social situations. Atheists just don’t have a uniform standard of expressing their non-belief publicly. My religious mother conducted worship in our home and all of us, believers and non-believers, were respectful of her activities and gladly partook of the goodies she distributed as blessed offerings. My atheist father on the other hand, did not hold a non-prayer meeting in the home to express his thoughts to us. So again, please understand that non-believers have to put up with others beliefs to a far greater extent in their daily lives than the converse, only because our culture is infused with religious activities. Atheists don't generally stand at street corners holding up signs and preach fire and brimstone against religion. So this burden of “pretending” that you are talking about is far greater on the non-believer. The reverse is mostly a figment of your imagination. Your hurt feelings about the “abuse” by atheists are overblown. Raucous blog comments on Pharyngula and intellectuals butting heads on evolutionary biology sites are not exactly widespread abuse of common religious folks. Yes, civility is desired even there. But your dismissal of religious interference in public life which has far more influence in shaping our public policy as a mere afterthought proves to me that you are not really very concerned about the reality of that abuse. You are a rationalist, you say. You are suffering from a severe case of Narcissism of Small Differences as many others like you also do. They reserve their worst vitriolic for those on their own side for not being genteel enough with the other side.

Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 27, 2010 12:15:27 PM

Just discovered that Quinn is a woman. My apologies for calling "her" a "him."

Posted by: Ruchira | Aug 27, 2010 12:57:35 PM

There was a very funny video on 'the Browser' a few weeks back, but I can't post the url because they've changed their format and you can't go back as far as before.

A meat eater is the dinner guest of a vegetarian, asks what's for dinner. It's salad, and all veggies. The meat eater points out that when he hosted the vegetarian he served a veggie meal....Host says there's no meat in the house. Guest says, "Well,... there's your cat, that would be okay."

Come on, it's just a joke!

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 27, 2010 8:04:30 PM

"The matchless value of freedom of speech, which is tied to freedom of conscience, is this: people who are stupid and wrong have the same rights as you."

People who assume, without proof of their own position, that those whose beliefs they cannot understand are stupid probably form the largest common denominator throughout history. Only slightly smaller is the subset of that group who turned out to be in the wrong themselves.

Posted by: Carlos | Aug 28, 2010 12:31:24 PM

Just give up now, atheists. As hard as you try, you will never be as condescending, dismissive, sarcastic, mean, and abusive to other people based on their religious beliefs, as religious people are to those of different religions.

Posted by: Vicki Baker | Aug 28, 2010 3:07:38 PM

Carlos, before you start assuming the writer of those lines is herself assumptive, consider that the test of how good freedom of speech and freedom of conscience are consists in our not having to be correct, or bright, or in the majority, to have these freedoms protected. As if the Founders knew everyone, just everyone, bid fair to do time in the dunce hat, depending on how culture and knowledge evolved. There are cultures -- and we're living in one -- where going to church and having a high paying job are considered good adaptations; by that reckoning, many of the people who read this blog are wrong and stupid. You yourself disagree with them, and may think they're wrong if not stupid. In a civil society, you don't, as a non-believer, assume a metaphysics you don't understand is stupid. You just know it's not what you believe, and do your part to deliver a legislative setback to restrictions that those who do believe it would place on your freedoms.

Vicki, when believers start picking on the VERY non-believers whose philosophical/aesthetic problems with people of faith are restricted to the religious right, and who want only legal victories over the RR, the kinds of victories that protect the RR as much as anyone, then you know it's time to go home.

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 28, 2010 7:48:36 PM

I'm not interested in legal victories, stupidity, "good adaptations" or in who gets painted with the pejoratives of condescension, sarcasm, or meanness. I'm only interested in truth.

Posted by: Carlos | Aug 28, 2010 9:50:18 PM

Ruchira:
"Also Quinn, how old are you? Do you seriously believe that I could have just "refused" to participate in the hand holding prayer that my host subjected me to without enquiring about my willingness to do so, in order to retain my personal freedom?"

Yes, I seriously believe that you could have just refused to participate in the prayer. In fact, I think it's important to be open about it. If people don't respect your right to not pray they don't deserve your company.

"They reserve their worst vitriolic for those on their own side for not being genteel enough with the other side."
The point is not to be genteel, but to be rational and maximally effective. The worse the enemy, the more important that becomes.

Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 29, 2010 12:36:21 AM

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

Posted by: Jana | Sep 1, 2010 11:15:12 AM

Not fairies maybe. But is it rational to presume that the beautiful garden has no gardener?

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 1, 2010 3:49:19 PM

"The most rational objective, then, is not necessarily to have everyone be completely rational but rational to the extent that optimizes well-being."

Except that well-being is impossible without rationality. If everyone is busy living in their fantasy world, who is going to make the machines run?

Unless you're suggesting a only a few should be required to live in dull rationality, while the rest of humanity gets to exist in happy fantasy. What a recipe for tyranny that would be!

I can't believe you've actually thought this one through.

Posted by: Yahzi | Sep 1, 2010 5:20:14 PM

Religious people don't have the right to have their magical belief treated with greater respect than they treat other magical beliefs.

This is the essence of observable fact, without adding or subtracting anything.

However, this is more of a mental health issue, dealing with infected hosts.
As Dennett has pointed out in his Lancet Fluke analogy, or gut bacteria in rats to promote the bacteria's propagation by promoting aggressive behavior so the rat will be consumed and the bacteria reproduction continued, meme infected individuals have had their brains rewired to propagate parasitic memes, in this case meme sets of religions, looking for new minds to colonize and replicate.
Like virus and prions, the host is merely a medium for replication.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Sep 1, 2010 9:18:13 PM

"Not fairies maybe. But is it rational to presume that the beautiful garden has no gardener?"

Carlos, here's the crux of the problem; is it rational to presume any of the things religionists presume about the question? NO.

Whatever we know or don't know about the universe, there is nothing to suggest that it was created by an unwed father who seems to have killed off the mother of his son, and then arranged the brutal murder of that son, which is what you believe, isn't it? And also that this gardener wants us to fight over who gets the garden until it's destroyed, and he'll then pick the 'lucky' ones that he likes the best? How edifying!

We're trying to not presume, but find out for sure who or what the 'gardener' is, that's all. Does this not show more respect?

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Sep 2, 2010 10:43:38 AM

"We're trying to not presume, but find out for sure who or what the 'gardener' is, that's all. Does this not show more respect?"

Agreed Alice. That's more than fair, and certainly more rational than to insist (in order to maintain ones composure) that we eliminate from the list of possible agents any mention of the supernatural or a deity.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 3:50:06 PM

"The author can kiss as much theist ass as she wants and imagine herself as being more successful in facilitating some goal than those who she thinks are "doing it wrong", but until evidence is provided for this belief."

Didn't I read somewhere that ever since Professor Dawkins started his public crusade against Religion, the number of people in the UK who professed to believe in evolution had declined?

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 4:09:27 PM

"According to an Ipsos/MORI poll conducted for the BBC in January 2006, 48% of people believe in the “evolution theory”, which was defined in the survey as “human kind [having] developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.”"

By 2009 it was 38%

link

Yikes.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 4:24:44 PM

God Delusion was published in 2006.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 4:29:13 PM

By 2009 it was 38%

link

Yikes.

The parasite is spreading, as the infected become vectors.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Sep 2, 2010 7:46:46 PM

Either that, or Dawkins is so condescending and offensive that people flee to perspectives far more polarized than they originally had. Hey, maybe he's really a creationist on a covert mission.

Or the original infection is losing its vitality as it is revealed it doesn't have much utility (fitness) in daily life.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 9:09:06 PM

We are, after all, a tribal species. Religion continues to serve that need. Nihilistic philosophies, not so much.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 2, 2010 9:14:28 PM

"Either that, or Dawkins is so condescending and offensive that people flee to perspectives far more polarized than they originally had. Hey, maybe he's really a creationist on a covert mission.???????????????????

Or the original infection is losing its vitality as it is revealed it doesn't have much utility (fitness) in daily life." ??????????????????

Carlos, I'm glad you've admitted that atheists have a more respectful attitude to life itself than religionists.
You've also proved that Dave Rannings' (and others') stance is the correct one, and no one can have a rational conversation with someone who "believes."

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Sep 3, 2010 4:58:09 AM

So the ideas that

1) Dawkins' hostile, mocking approach is driving people away from his position, and
2) the theory of Evolution is not as useful to people in their daily lives as religion is
are not rational?

How so?????????????

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 3, 2010 5:55:42 AM

Or, just perhaps, you and I were having a rational conversation up until a minute ago, but then I said something that offended you (apparently).

Why are you offended?

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 3, 2010 6:02:06 AM

You've also proved that Dave Rannings' (and others') stance is the correct one, and no one can have a rational conversation with someone who "believes."

Not only that, this brings on other mental health problems for our medical system:
Link

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Sep 3, 2010 11:52:06 AM

That's a real problem, Dave. Because who is going to help people in the medical system break free from their delusions? The "mental illness/mental health meme" is spread by Pharma and academic psychiatry -- for profit. A lot of the cure you believe may emerge from the medical system makes no more sense than being sprinkled with holy water or a trip to Lourdes:


The War on Unhappiness


Carl Elliott


American Medicine Meets American Dream

In September/October issue of Mother Jones:

"Carl Elliott ("Making a Killing") is a bioethics professor at the University of Minnesota and author of the forthcoming book White Coat, Black Hat: Adventures on the Dark Side of Medicine."


Risks of Psychosis Drugs for Young

(Thank you, Ruchira.)


Carlat Blog


Robert Whitaker's Psychology Today Blog

People invest faith in the high priests of psychiatry and psychology. Now, the Rx pad and talking cure or positive thinking meme stands in for religion-based "cures."

Perhaps surgical removal of social problems and delusions is in order?

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Sep 3, 2010 2:35:51 PM

Arguably (at least) the most profoundly damaging psychiatric outcome, national suicide rates inversely map very well to rates of religiosity.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108625/more-religious-countries-lower-suicide-rates.aspx

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 3, 2010 4:56:25 PM

"A lot of the cure you believe may emerge from the medical system makes no more sense than being sprinkled with holy water or a trip to Lourdes:"

In moments of candor, I suspect no one here would really be surprised if it turned out that Lourdes had higher success rates for these sorts of problems.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 3, 2010 4:59:54 PM

Sorry, I just noticed Dave again posted a link to Gregory S. Paul's "statistical analysis."

There are so many rebuttals, it's hard to pick just one. I think I already posted the Gallup critique the last time. Here's another: i-can’t-believe-that-atrocious-article-is-still-being-touted also wondering at the lack of immunity "skeptics" have for a meme that says what they most want to hear.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 3, 2010 7:58:51 PM

Carlos, you rely on others' input, then you throw out still more examples of yet another question that is answered by a question. In other words, your style of argument is cowardly, shallow and opportunist. This is the modus operandi of all religionists. You continually revise and rely on rational people's objections, while never quite answering, unequivically, a single question. For instance, you pose the questions:

"So the ideas that 1) Dawkins' hostile, mocking approach is driving people away from his position, and
2) the theory of Evolution is not as useful to people in their daily lives as religion is
are not rational?

How so?????????????

Instead of conceding that, yes, it is more reverent to study the gardem with all we can bring to bear, than to assume that the machinations of various clerics should stand in for our consciousness, and conscience, you accuse those who do this with irreverence, ignoring YOUR blasphemous reliance on corrupt priests to tell you what god is and wants, not to mention whether he exists at all. You rely on dubious texts at one point, then when that is knocked down you skip on to emotions, and people's daily regimens. What is your real basis? Never answered.

Neither of your silly questions bears on the questions originally posed, i.e., whether the epithets you hurl at non-'believers' are justified. It's just rhetoric piled on.

There's an easy answer to your quesions, of course; people who 'believe' don't react rationally to having these (Dawkins') questions posed, however 'nicely'. And of course they can get on with their 'daily lives' more easily without answering them, because they've been trained to do that. They don't really 'believe' in this nonsensical religion, they just KNOW that the question DISCOMFORTS them, and so they are quite happy to ignore the questions, and go water the garden, or go to work as usual, because they've always ignored these questions.

I posed the idea that NOT ASSUMING things about the 'gardener' was more in line with reverence for the garden, than to presume that you know 'god', and his wishes. YOU presume to know the mind of some weird god, and PRESUME that those of us who, acknowledging our humanity, attempt to understand the world in which we live are irreverent. You conflate impatience with your silly objections with irreverence and disrespect for life itself.

Without knowing whether you profess Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever, you undermine your 'argument' by playing these games.

You are the irreverent one. Atheists are more reverent than you. They acknowledge the mysteries, so much more than you religionists.

If there is a god that created the universes, I am confident that that god will hold atheists in more esteem than those who don't care enough about their own nature to discover what it IS.

So, I say, Carlos, your 'god' is puny, and deserves not even the respect of one such as I. He - I know it's a 'he' that you worship - doesn't even deserve your weak, unexamined respect. 'He' can't stand up to human scrutiny, he has to rely on the 'faith', the unquestioning 'belief' - which is NO BELIEF, of people who are looking for validation of their laziness.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Sep 4, 2010 9:24:59 PM

Alice, I'm looking back over this thread and I can't see anywhere where I've attacked anyone's "reverence," referred to or referenced "dubious texts" (I presume you mean scripture), appealed to emotions, criticized anybody's "daily regimens," or even given any indication that I am disinterested in or unappreciative of science's progress in describing the physical universe.

But I still don't see how you've answered my question. What is it about about those two comments you appended so many question marks to that made you accuse me of being irrational?

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 5, 2010 1:07:46 PM

Gee, Carlos, maybe it was your comparing atheism to a virus, and just insinuating that going off in a tizzy of reaction at hearing the way religion sounds to someone not 'blessed' with faith (there, is that politer enough?) would be perfectly reasonable. I don't. I think religionists need to realize that the reasonable position is skepticism, and furthermore that morality, virtues like kindness, honesty, generosity and devotion to a perceived goal are not the creation of religions, they are human nature.Perhaps my patience has been snapped by the thrice-yearly stayover visit of an in-law (not mine) who is just as shallow, false, snotty, racist, self-congratulatory, stupid AND self-righteous as she can be, as she hies herself off to church. Did I mention mean and materialistic? Within half an hour of meeting her for the first time she had to show me all her diamonds, which bore me stiff, and told me that the bumby, dark-skinned avocadoes are from the male trees, and the lighter green, smooth ones are from the female trees!

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Sep 5, 2010 2:21:28 PM

Stephen Prothero on world religions and religion as greatest source of good in history, greatest source of evil in history. Religions as source of great questions, not simplistic answers:


BookTV

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Sep 5, 2010 3:52:30 PM

Quinn, Please point me to the date if I missed it, but I would still like to see your take on the earlier comment by Kai (Aug 24 11:34:50pm) regarding what exactly you mean by "well being" and "happiness" when you say the following:

"Suppose you could choose either to maximize human rationality or to maximize human happiness. For most of us, even for the most strident advocates of reason and critical thinking, I suspect the choice would be happiness or well-being."

If a drug were available which created unending total individual happiness without shortening lifespan or impairing normal function - but at the cost of imposing an irrational but apparently harmless delusion, would you take it? recommend it? give it to your children?

And if the effectiveness and harmlessness of the drug was dependent on having everyone take it, how much harm would you be willing to do in order to make that happen?

If happiness is the ultimate value, then might not a rational utilitarian who had found such a drug reasonably decide to sacrifice reason, and to cause huge immediate suffering, in order to reach the ultimate goal of having ignorant bliss eventually be the lot of all future generations?

Posted by: Alan Cooper | Sep 6, 2010 2:16:30 AM

Ah. Well I'm sorry your ox was gored by the "virus" comment. That's just a little joke Dave and I share back and forth. The source of the joke is one of Daniel Dennett's "Intuition Pumps" (which IMO is Dennett's improvement on the phrase Mental Masturbation) about the Lancet Fluke and the Ant and how that relates to infectious memes. Atheism is not a skeptical position since it rejects inquiry (sometimes, as you have shown, quite emotionally) in favor of a hard line position that permits no examination.

Posted by: Carlos | Sep 6, 2010 11:03:13 AM

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