August 30, 2010
Religion Should Not Get A Pass
In my last essay "A Rational Approach to Irrationality," I argued that not all forms of religious criticism are equally effective. Judging from the comments and blog articles posted in response, I seem to have hit a nerve. The respected evolutionary biologist and blogger Jerry Coyne took me to task in his article, "Should religion get a pass?" because he interpreted my position as going soft on religion.
In all fairness to Coyne, I wasn’t clear as to where I stood on the issue of criticism of religion. So let me set the record straight here: my answer to Coyne’s question, “Should religion get a pass?”, is an emphatic no.
I suggested that attacks on religion may not be the most effective approach to protecting secular education. And I argued that verbal abuse may do more harm than good. That I oppose all criticism of religion is an easy, but incorrect, inference. I think critical discourse is a vitally important part of a healthy society; religion merits no exemption.
I’m not surprised that my article precipitated such a passionate response from atheists, since to many it seemed to support the widespread public attitude that religion is sacred territory, and criticism of any kind is akin to a personal attack.
Which raises the question, why is it that the general public seems to think that religion should get a pass, that any kind of criticism of religious beliefs is offensive? Maybe it's because religious people feel that their beliefs are as much a part of who they are as their race or their eye color; something they were born with and can’t change. This feeling probably isn't too far off- to some extent, religious faith is not a choice. Children are born into the religious world of their parents and after years of indoctrination, religious beliefs are not easily changed or abandoned.
The importance of early childhood education is recognized by both sides of the religious debate. This is evident in the Jesuit motto "Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man". The secular movement should adopt a similar motto.
The systematic indoctrination of children is unethical and must be stopped. Strictly speaking, religious freedom is a state protected right. But I think we can agree that freedom to choose a religion can be restricted in a more practical sense. For students at a religious school, the choice is free in a legal sense. It’s not a free choice in any practical sense, since all but one of the options have been obscured. If you are only exposed to one option, you don’t have a choice.
Criticism of religion is respectful of people’s freedom to choose. Presenting facts and arguments that people can use to draw their own conclusions doesn’t in any way restrict their freedom to do so. It informs the decision. It’s a good thing.
I think Richard Dawkins sets a great example. He doesn’t stoop to personal attacks. He isn’t gratuitously offensive in speech or in writing. His recent documentary “Faith School Menace?” draws attention to the rise of faith schools in the UK. It raises important questions, like what’s best for children and what rights should children have in determining their beliefs. I suggest we follow his lead, in both the way we treat people and what we focus on.
Jerry Coyne also sets a great example. In a review of Coyne’s book, Why Evolution is True, Publisher’s Weekly said this: "Additionally, although fully respectful of those who promote intelligent design and creationism, he uses the data at his disposal to demolish any thought that creationism is supported by the evidence while also explaining why those ideas fall outside the bounds of science.
Generally speaking, I think we should pay greater attention to strategy and tactics. More specifically, I think secular education should be our top priority. To this end, non-threatening persuasion tactics may be especially useful. It will be a long battle and we should identify of our most effective weapons.
Coyne closed his response to my essay with this statement: “In the end, the arguments to go easy on religion all boil down to this claim: it’s the most common form of superstition. It’s useless to attack it because it’s ubiquitous and entrenched, and we’ll only alienate people if we try. But I need hardly point out one lesson of history: the ubiquity of bad beliefs does not make them immune to change.” I agree wholeheartedly, and real change may begin when we are able to grant every child their right to an education free from religious indoctrination.
Posted by Quinn O'Neill at 12:45 AM | Permalink






















Comments
Well, Quinn, I 'got' your point in your first essay, but I also completely agree that we mustn't give religion a pass. On a strictly practical level, I think it's pretty useless to try to talk someone down from their religious cloud; you'll just get a headache. I prefer to just state my non-belief and move on.
More and more, though, I have to question whether the most strident 'believers' actually believe; I think they don't. What they're desperately hanging onto is the state of not examining whether they believe. It's too hard, too upsetting to question their belonging to their group. It's more like a social thing, complete with having an important friend. Like the song goes, "...I've got a friend in Jesus. And I know that when I die, he's going to set me up with the Spirit in the Sky."
But anyone who likes to challenge believers should certainly do it. And if I do, I find that many so-called Christians don't really want to emulate Christ, for instance, they just want to say they do.
Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 30, 2010 10:49:27 AM
I’m of distinctly two minds on this issue. On the one hand, religion is often pernicious, as are all forms of supernaturalism. (I hold with those who say there is no such thing; the problem is simply that our notion of Nature is too narrow.) On the other hand, reason is often pernicious, especially when it is divorced from compassion. Do I really need to cite examples? Cases, let’s say, of scientific testing done on subjects without their knowledge? Or the spectacle of those legions of rational scientists whose work has produced the massive degradation of this entire planet? What I’m suggesting is that rational people examine reason itself with the same alacrity with which they examine unreason. Then we might find ourselves not in a situation of reason vs. unreason, but in a battle for a third way, for which I don’t even have a name.
Posted by: Joseph Hutchison | Aug 30, 2010 10:58:38 AM
I think it's called human life.
Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Aug 30, 2010 11:28:06 AM
"Then we might find ourselves not in a situation of reason vs. unreason, but in a battle for a third way, for which I don’t even have a name."
Humility?
Posted by: JanieM | Aug 30, 2010 11:28:13 AM
Maybe it's because religious people feel that their beliefs are as much a part of who they are as their race or their eye color; something they were born with and can’t change. That, and many honestly regard religion as a virtue. They strive to be religious like they strive to be honest or compassionate. Which accounts for the great suspicion of atheists. When you say you don't believe a particular supernatural claim, you seem to be saying that you are indifferent to morality. You'd like to think that the examples of Dawkins et al. would teach that there's no connection between belief and virtue, but then you would have thought that about the American founders!
Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Aug 30, 2010 12:24:30 PM
"...[R]eal change may begin when we are able to grant every child their right to an education free from religious indoctrination." Hmmm. Wonder how that might occur. Who will act on behalf of "every child"? I suppose parents and interested bystanders who disagree ought to be compelled to stand down and stop all their indoctinating activities. Might require abolition of a few legal rights. I don't think this is very likely to happen. That being the case, I'm not sure Quinn's analysis is very valuable.
Posted by: James Clark | Aug 30, 2010 1:29:31 PM
Well, as Lenny Bruce so astutely pointed out:
"If you can't say fuck, you can't say fuck the government"
This also applies to the self censorship that hampers and protects religion from analysis and observation.
The meme is so protective, it even forbids naming the psychopathic space daddy in some of the infected hosts.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 30, 2010 2:35:15 PM
O'Neill assumes that "we" would be able to override parents' right to educate their own children. As distressing as 6,000-year-old Earth beliefs and creationism and theocratic aspirations are, and as abusive as it gets for children in places like that depicted in the film Jesus Camp
Jesus Camp
I don't see how the government can decide how parents should educate their children.
While one of the drivers of the homeschool movement has been religious education -- or indoctrination -- there is also a growing alternative education movement that has found "secular" public schooling woefully lacking, both in terms of curricula and the relatively new penchant for drugging kids with agents such as Ritalin and Adderall that can cause long-term damage to developing brains and nervous systems. If a teacher and other school authorities recommend drugging kids, parents can have their kids taken away from them and placed in foster care (where they are likely to have even more drugs forced on them) for refusal to comply. This is at least as great a worry as kids being indoctrinated in "superstitious" religious beliefs.
Also, how would this work? Would Friends Schools be permitted to exist, but not schools of other denominations? Would chapel service at Groton suddenly be forbidden? Doubt it.
It has been nearly impossible to even get corporal punishment abolished in public schools (and homes), since some people believe it is their right to indulge in corporal punishment, even though similar thrashing of adults is illegal.
In 2005 in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, a bill was introduced that would have forbidden corporal punishment of children in the home. I believe it was eventually withdrawn due to pressure from people in various "religious" communities.
No Spank
Opposition to the UN Rights of the Child document is already organized and seeks introduction of a constitutional amendment to protect "parental rights." Among the rights that parentalrights.org wants to uphold is the right to "reasonable spanking."
I hope people realize that the home school and alternative education movement is a very diverse group, not limited to true believing religionists by any means:
Homeschool Is Legal
Theocratic Ambitions
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Aug 30, 2010 3:22:36 PM
Most religion could probably be classified as child abuse, but is not so because of the "Enemy of The People" syndrome, that Ibsen pointed out.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 30, 2010 3:51:50 PM
Generally speaking, I think we should pay greater attention to strategy and tactics. More specifically, I think secular education should be our top priority. To this end, non-threatening persuasion tactics may be especially useful. It will be a long battle and we should identify of our most effective weapons.
I am consistently amused by the modern secular humanist's inability to see how this "we vs. them" militaristic mode of thinking is in deep tension with their own (professed) ideals.
Let reason win the day! Unless it doesn't! In which case, attack!...
Good to see you're back on the right side, Quinn. Quitters or sympathizers will be court-martialed and shot.
Posted by: Joe | Aug 30, 2010 4:35:48 PM
I am consistently amused by the modern secular humanist's inability to see how this "we vs. them" militaristic mode of thinking is in deep tension with their own (professed) ideals.
I seek clarification. Is it the case that all confrontation of ideas is militaristic? (If I argue with a communist, is that militaristic?) Further, what is this deep tension? Are humanists supposed to value reticence in some particular way?
Posted by: Ken Pidcock | Aug 30, 2010 4:50:55 PM
If a teacher and other school authorities recommend drugging kids, parents can have their kids taken away from them and placed in foster care (where they are likely to have even more drugs forced on them) for refusal to comply.
This can't be true on the face of it, since only an M.D. can prescribe drugs. Also, the 2004 IDEA specifically prohibits schools from requiring psychotropic medication as a condition for enrollment. Obviously CPS has the power to enforce compliance with medical treatment, but I'm pretty sure the number of cases where parents have been threatened with removal of children simply for refusing Ritalin is infinitesimal. CPS caseworkers aren't generally looking for any excuse to remove kids from the home.
How, as a society, can we keep parents from fucking up their kids without fucking up ourselves? I do agree with Louise and the other commenters that this is a more vexed question than Ms. O'Neill seems to realize. I'd be satisfied just to abolish the double standard that makes it OK to hit kids, but not adults. However, I recognize that only religious arguments are going to get some parents to stop or at least curtail corporal punishment.
Posted by: Vicki Baker | Aug 30, 2010 5:05:11 PM
If a teacher and other school authorities recommend drugging kids, parents can have their kids taken away from them and placed in foster care (where they are likely to have even more drugs forced on them) for refusal to comply.
Vicki writes: "This can't be true on the face of it, since only an M.D. can prescribe drugs. Also, the 2004 IDEA specifically prohibits schools from requiring psychotropic medication as a condition for enrollment. Obviously CPS has the power to enforce compliance with medical treatment, but I'm pretty sure the number of cases where parents have been threatened with removal of children simply for refusing Ritalin is infinitesimal. CPS caseworkers aren't generally looking for any excuse to remove kids from the home."
There are many doctors who are ready, willing and able to go along with school recommendations for drugging kids. If 2004 IDEA regulations prohibit forced drugging as a condition of enrollment, I wonder how many cases there are in US public schools where this regulation is being violated.
I don't know how frequently foster care placement has occurred over drugging issues, but I'll ask the lawyer who mentioned it to me and try to find out. In any case, Ritalin and other stimulant drug dosing has risen dramatically in schools over the last 20 years.
Here is an excerpt from an article by Fred A. Baughman Jr., M.D., on this phenomenon.
From:
Psych Rights-Medicaid Fraud
Trampling Human Rights in the Name of Psychiatry
"Wherever, for a single day, a child, or anyone in the life of a child, is lead to believe that that child is “brain-damaged,” “diseased,” “subnormal,” “abnormal,” when they are not--that child has been stigmatized, harmed, and damaged. The “damaging” begins with pencil-paper tests—never a biologic proof. The damaging is compounded when, in addition, they are labeled “dyslexic” “dyscalculic” “learning disabled”—not one, a real disease.
Once Ritalin, or any one of several psychotropic drugs, courses through their brain (and body) day-in and day-out, they are, for the very first time, physically, neurologically and biologically, abnormal. The disease they have, one that can be proven by objective means, by chemical analysis of any body fluid or tissue, is Ritalin (stimulant) Encephalopathy—not ADHD, but Ritalin Encephalopathy (fancy term for brain damage).
Today in the US, millions of parents are being told by teachers, principals, counselors, special educators, psychologists, psychiatrists and physicians of all sorts, that their children cannot learn, and even, that they will not be permitted to come to school, unless they are taking Ritalin. Frequently, it is implied that unless they do so, they are acting contrary to the best interests of their child, and that a court might see fit to limit or terminate their custody of their own child—all in the name of a “disease” that doesn’t exist! That is a total, one hundred percent fraud.
Just yesterday, I spoke to a divorced father with an eleven year old son who believes neither in ADHD or in Ritalin, and who, as a consequence, has had his share of custody sharply curtailed. Further, the judge threatened him with a loss of all custody rights were he to continue to obstruct “treatment” in any way. To date, I have served as a medical expert or advisor on this issue to approximately 25 such parents, in divorce situations, with ADHD and Ritalin the pivotal, divisive issue. In virtually every instance, family court judges have chosen to believe prevailing psychiatry propaganda, refusing to consider that fact that ADHD does not exist. In so doing, they become accomplices to the heinous, injurious diagnosing and drugging of normal children and to the unprecedented trampling of fundamental family and human rights cases that number in the millions. After all, the grieving children of divorce and all of the others are not grieving at all; they are not troubled; they have not been failed by the adults in their lives, their schools or communities—they have a “chemical imbalance”, they have ADHD.
The Hippocratic Oath does not permit such “practice.” It does not permit the “treatment” of real children—of real human beings, for “diseases” that are not real diseases. The Nuremberg Code does not permit the “treatment” of normal, disease-free children with addictive, dangerous, Schedule II drugs for profit. It does not permit deception and the abrogation informed consent rights that is occurring today in virtually every case across the United States. This is criminal. It is child abuse. Nothing about it is the legitimate practice of medicine. It must be exposed. Those responsible for the fraud and deception must be exposed and held accountable."
At least one can escape from fire and brimstone Sunday sermons. Not the case for children who are forced to take psychotropic drugs.
Here's a TV version:
Frontline
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Aug 30, 2010 7:10:24 PM
Ridding the world of religion will have no impact on irrationalism, which seems to be on the upswing on all fronts. At least religious have some relationship with a code of behavior.
Posted by: Carlos | Aug 30, 2010 8:45:05 PM
"Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man". The secular movement should adopt a similar motto."
"Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever"
Posted by: Carlos | Aug 30, 2010 8:57:20 PM
Louise, yes, I'd be interested to see some stats on how many parents have been charged with medical neglect or had kids taken away due to refusal of ADHD meds. Also, any stats on compulsory meds as a requirement for school enrollment, post 2004.
If your sources I wonder why your sources are not informing parents of their rights. Some states even expressly exclude refusal to adminsister psychotropic drugs from the definition of medical neglect:
http://www.ablechild.org/slegislation.htm
Posted by: Vicki Baker | Aug 30, 2010 9:32:59 PM
"Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man". The secular movement should adopt a similar motto."
I think that would be a very bad idea indeed and quite harmful to the idea of secular education. I don't "give" my child to the school system.
Posted by: Vicki Baker | Aug 30, 2010 9:50:14 PM
Religion props up rightwingery and rightwingery props up religion. The most religious Western nations have the weakest social safety nets. As Marx said, to combat religion you must combat the social conditions that necessitate it.
Posted by: mcd | Aug 30, 2010 11:34:01 PM
Vicki,
Perhaps things have changed considerably since the IDEA 2004 provisions you mention. But here is a glimpse at CPS and drugging by Breeding and Baughman before that date.
Wildest Colts
More anon.
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Aug 30, 2010 11:37:12 PM
Keeping kids from being indoctrinated in the first place is of course the ideal solution, but I have no idea, not have I ever heard any, how that might practically be accomplished without creating a new instrument of state power which could and most likely would be abused.
The best proposal, which I've mentioned before in similar discussions, may be Dan Dennett's idea (which he mentioned in a TED Talk and probably elsewhere) that comprehensive comparative religion classes be required early in grade school.
But as I've also said, while many religionists might give lip service to the idea, they'd be likely to resist and undermine any attempt to deny them exclusive access to their kids' impressionable minds, at least by delaying such courses until after they've had first shot. The attempt of some Catholic schools here in Canada essentially to hijack courses along these lines (termed religion and ethics, IIRC, which, if so, of course is problematic for its implicit conflation of those terms) bears this out, I think.
So I really don't see any practical means that isn't *very* indirect, more indirect even than comparative studies which aim to plant that "wait a sec, they can't all be the Truth" seed of critical thinking at an age when critical thinking is just becoming possible for kids. (BTW, I'd be interested to see what Alison Gopnik, with her focus on early childhood cognitive development, would have to say on this.)
I'm also discouraged by the possibility that religionists are simply outbreeding rationalists.
A wider perspective: we need to take a hint from cog sci and ev psych (yes, yes, I know the problems with just so stories and all that for the latter, but I'm still with Pinker and Cosmides & Tooby on the necessity of exploring it) and remember that rationality, like consciousness, is but a small and very recently developed part of human cognition. We need to look at the instinctive and emotional barriers to rationality much more closely if we're to have any hope of increasing its beachhead (yes, a militaristic metaphor, if you like) in the campaign to liberate the psyches of believers.
Posted by: Kai | Aug 31, 2010 2:05:52 AM
What do you mean by 'religion'? Does the term include, say, Madhyamika Buddhism, or any of the many kinds of Confucianism? There are many very different systems that are 'religious' and it doesn't help anyone's argument to lump them all together.
Posted by: Mike Cope | Aug 31, 2010 3:46:43 AM
"The best proposal, which I've mentioned before in similar discussions, may be Dan Dennett's idea"
It was in breaking the spell, too. The basic idea was part of a "Western Civ" course I took in High School, perhaps not formally focused enough on Religions perniciousness to suit some, it was taught by an Atheist who took some glee in his work. Personally, as long as they are being compared, Atheism would certainly be one of the topics covered. Genocide and Eugenics (y'know, SCIENCE) come into full flower there and should be mentioned.
Potentially, though, even if it can't be done in the schools, one could seed the broadcast media streams with all sorts of anti-religious bigotry and any other social programming (oh wait, they already call it programming) instructions you might wish. It's a powerful tool.
Posted by: Carlos | Aug 31, 2010 5:02:59 AM
The most religious Western nations have the weakest social safety nets. As Marx said, to combat religion you must combat the social conditions that necessitate it.
The more secular societies have the highest societal health, and the question one must ask is:
Do sick societies attract the religious, or does religion cause poor societal health?
Either way, ignorance, religion and superstition are not beneficial indicators.
Marx was correct in his analysis.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 31, 2010 11:03:41 AM
Does the term include, say, Madhyamika Buddhism, or any of the many kinds of Confucianism?
Neither of those are theistic.
No extraterrestrial morality from a psychopathic space daddy.
We are speaking of the ones with invisible friends, from Bronze and Iron age bad creation myths and fiction regurgitated from ignorant herders.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 31, 2010 11:12:08 AM
Some believe that science will eventually provide ways to objectively measure human happiness and well-being, and that we should all aspire to those goals and embrace the results.
However, isn't it naive to believe that scientific evidence will help human beings make "better" choices? Those who aren't hypocritical reason "if only people could objectively understand X, they would make better choices." Yet, even the most educated among us cannot seem to universally agree on any one subject. Each believes his own view to be mostly better than the alternatives.
So long as choice exists people will choose to do whatever they want, not what others feel is best for them. And we're surrounded with evidence. Not everyone chooses the most efficient transportation, most efficient residence, most effective means of savings or investment, "best" beliefs, ideal careers or most compatible mates despite endless attempts by pundits to "educate" consumers about the best (i.e. their) choices.
And so it is with parenting and education. Science could eventually provide evidence that some methods are better than others. So, what should we expect as scientific evidence continues to fail to influence so many people? Perhaps hundreds of new laws that dictate what we can and cannot do based on science? Is that really the sort of world in which we wish to live?
I believe people exist fluidly on a continuum between two extremes: conditionally selfless and unconditionally self-centered. Despite evidence/experience to the contrary, we each believe we know what is best for ourselves, our families, communities, nations, race and planet. We want others to follow our beliefs and advice (and we are willing to commit ourselves to help those who do), but we do not want to be compelled to follow the advice and beliefs of others (and we will resist such attempts).
Yes, science will eventually find answers to many more questions, but it will never find universal acceptance as a guideline for humanity and human morality even among the most rational of us.
Posted by: josephmartins | Aug 31, 2010 11:12:51 AM
Vicki,
I've come up empty handed on statistics, and don't know if there are any that answer the question of how many kids have been placed in foster care over psychotropic drug issues.
However, here is more on the ADD and ADHD and drugging phenomenon, including an excerpt from an article by a disability specialist, Salvatore Pizzuro.
ADHD
Pizzuro
"Quite often, parents are coerced into allowing their children to be medicated as a condition for receiving special education and other remedial service. However, this practice is expressly forbidden by federal law. On December 3, 2004, President Bush signed the “Prohibition of Mandatory Medication Amendment,” as part of the most recent reauthorization of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. The Amendment “requires schools to implement policies that prohibit schoolchildren being forced onto psychiatric drugs as a requisite for their education.” Nevertheless, the author has witnessed endless violations of this Law, including within New Jersey’s schools."
If this is common in New Jersey public schools, I doubt if it's a rare occurrence in other schools throughout the country.
This discussion is interesting in its call for secular education and children's right to choice. When pharma marketing propaganda stands in for evidence-based medicine and courts can order that children be given psychotropic drugs, children's choice with regard to what they are forced to ingest is completely eliminated. This is the kind of profit-motivated secular idiocy and foreclosure of freedom that corporatocracy has resulted in for millions of kids.
Joseph Martins,
Excellent assessment of the issues at hand.
Dave,
Who the hell cares what Marx said? He was an industrial-minded analyst who merely wanted workers to become owners in the same factory industrial system that's destroying life as we know it.
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Aug 31, 2010 4:02:58 PM
"Who the hell cares what Marx said? He was an industrial-minded analyst who merely wanted workers to become owners in the same factory industrial system that's destroying life as we know it."
Even if one grants this point, it's still a non sequitur to hold that this somehow prevents any of the analyses he made, on any of a variety of subjects, from being at all valid.
Posted by: Kai | Aug 31, 2010 5:46:49 PM
Kai,
Whatever the subject, his name surfaces frequently -- nearly as often as the talking snake and the flying horse.
I'll let you combat the social conditions you believe give rise to religious superstition.
If so many people weren't drinking Pharma Kool-Aid or Soma, there might be more people around to combat drug-induced social ills of epidemic proportions.
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Aug 31, 2010 6:06:04 PM
He was an industrial-minded analyst who merely wanted workers to become owners in the same factory industrial system that's destroying life as we know it.
Louise-I have sympathies with your observation of abuse of marginally effective, or destructive psycho pharms--
However, your rudimentary knowledge of Marx needs upgrading.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Sep 1, 2010 12:33:31 AM
Why does Marx enter into the discussion of religion and secular education? Just because I got fed up and blurted out Who the hell cares? does not mean that I need to go read Das Kapital. As a matter of fact, I really should finish reading Georg Simmel's the Philosophy of Money, which I started a while ago before falling asleep on page 283 or so.
Look, Dave, here's a nice movie, Money and Life, with lots of interesting interviews. Maybe you'd like to contribute to getting it into final production? Hazel Henderson, David Korten, Riane Eisler . . .
Money&Life
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Sep 1, 2010 2:13:49 AM
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