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July 12, 2010

Moral Dilemmas

ScreenHunter_01 Jul. 12 15.16 Moral philosophers spend a good bit of their time reflecting on what they call moral dilemmas. It is not entirely clear—nothing in philosophy is ever entirely clear—how to characterize them. But the usual course is to consider a case in which an agent is faced with two courses of action, only one of which can be chosen, and are such that there seem to be compelling reasons for each choice.  By itself this would seem to be just a hard case; one in which the reasons are roughly equivalent and it is difficult to tell which set of reasons is stronger. But some philosophers claim that the situation can be much worse than this. It can be the case that the reasons are such that neither set over-rides the other. Or at least that with resources available for thought we cannot make such a determination. A consequence of this is supposed to be that no matter what we do we will be doing something wrong or failing to do something that we are required to do.

Examples abound in the literature. Sartre’s case of the student who wants to join the resistance but has an aging mother who lives with, and depends, on him. Sophie’s Choice to pick which of her two children will be killed by the Nazi concentration camp guard. If she refuses to pick one , both will be killed. Recently, I ran across a book—The Lone Survivor—which is an account of a group of Navy Seals on a mission in Afghanistan told by the only survivor of a failed mission. It presents an account of a moral choice that this group of four men had to make. The case is interesting to think about since it raises a number of different issues which are relevant to the theoretical notion of a moral dilemma, as well as the practical issue of how to think about such difficult and terrible choices.

The four men set out on a mission to try and locate a local Taliban leader – the head of a heavily armed group of Taliban. They do not know what village he is in so plan to remain concealed in some appropriate spot on a sparsely covered high-up mountain until they spot him and attempt to kill him. They discover such a spot and remain concealed, and still, for many hours in the hot sun. If they are spotted from above they are dead ducks. But the area above them seems completely empty. After many hours they hear a noise of soft footsteps above them and a man, wearing a turban and carrying an ax almost stumbles over them. They point their rifles at him and tell him to sit down when suddenly a flock of goats comes trotting up the mountain accompanied by two other men--more precisely one man and a boy around fourteen years old. All three men are distinctly unfriendly—which might be explained by discovering a heavily armed group of soldiers camped out on their farm.

The question arises for the Seals as to what they should do with the men. It is best to continue with quotes from the man who survived to give a picture of how they framed the choices and reasoned about what to do.

“What did we do now? They were very obviously goatherds, farmers from the high country. Or, as it states in the pages of the Geneva Convention, unarmed civilians. The strictly correct military decision would still be to kill them without further discussion, because we could not know their intentions. How could we know if they were affiliated with a Taliban militia group or sworn by some tribal blood pact to inform the Taliban leaders of anything suspicious looking they found in the mountains…. The hard fact is that if these three Afghan scarecrows ran off to find Sharmack and his men, we were going to be in serious trouble, trapped out here on this mountain ridge.” (pp 200-202)

They proceed to a discussion. One says, “I think we should kill them, because we can't let them go.” Another says, “I really don’t give a shit what we do. You want me to kill `em, I’ll kill `em. …I only work here.” The third says, “Well, until right now I’d assumed killing `em was our only option. I’d like to hear what you think, Mikey.”  Mikey: …If we kill them, someone will find their bodies real quick. For a start, these fucking goats are just going to hang around. And when these guys don’t get home for their dinner, their friends and relatives are going to head straight out to look for them….When they find the bodies, the Taliban leadership will sing to the Afghan media. The media in the U.S.A. will latch on to it and write stuff about the brutish U.S. Armed Forces. Very shortly after that we’ll be charged with murder. The murder of innocent Afghan farmers."

The men then tried to contact higher commanders who did not respond to their signal. One man sums up their choices. We kill them and bury them here. We kill them and throw them off the cliff. We get out and say nothing. We turn them loose and get the hell out of here.  Marcus, the author of the book, considers a fourth option but it is not feasible. Tying the men up and leaving to establish another position. They have no rope. He casts the deciding vote in favor of letting them go, and moving to a new position. They do so. The farmers notify the Taliban. The Seals are located in their new position by an over-whelming number of Taliban troops. After a fierce fire fight three of the Seals are killed with Marcus , badly injured, surviving to tell the tale.

He believes that he made a terrible error in casting the deciding vote to free the farmers. Now there is no doubt that this is a terrible decision to have to make. There is no doubt that there are considerations which favor each of the options; we will get to them shortly. But there are many issues about which there can be doubt. 1) Were the options framed correctly? Were there options not considered? 2) Were the relevant factors framed correctly? Were all the factors considered? 3) Were the relevant factors given a plausible weighting? 4) Was the reasoning sound? 5) Was the correct decision made? Is there a correct decision? 6) What is the relevance of the fact that Marcus believed—even as he made the decision and certainly after—that he was making a mistake? 7) Is it the case that no matter which option was chosen they would be doing something wrong?

Framing of the Options

In the view of the Seals there were only two (relevant) options in the situation—kill or free the farmers. There were, of course, many other options. They could break their legs. They could feed them and give them money in the hopes this would influence their future decisions. They could simply have kept them as prisoners. But all of these were have the consequence that there would be relatives who went out to find them or left too much uncertainty about what they would do once freed. It is true could not be certain they would inform the Taliban but it is reasonable to believe that is the most likely course. The hard fact remains that they can either kill or face a significant probability that they will be killed.

One factor that was not discussed was freeing the men and abandoning the mission,  Whether this is because that simply was not in their space of options, or because retreat would be as dangerous as staying around in another location is unknown from the account we are working with.

Relevant factors

There were considerations of quite different types that entered the discussion. First, what is the “militarily proper” course of action? “  The strictly correct military decision would be to kill them without further discussion.” T his is preceded by a mention of what the Geneva Convention requires so one assumes that the “military” decision is being opposed to the “legally correct” one. And by military decision one assumes is meant something like what will promote the current set of military orders and objectives of the mission they were sent out on. This is not the same as what will most promote the possibility of returning from the mission unscathed, or at least alive. The decision is not being made on narrow grounds of self-interest—although that is certainly a relevant consideration.

There are also what might be called “political” considerations that are invoked. If they kill the farmers this will result in an immense public relations coup for the Taliban. This will make the life of the military more difficult in the future. It will also mean that he men will likely face murder charges’ again a consideration of self-interest which is relevant.  They acknowledge the force of the Geneva Convention but this a legal convention. But there is some evidence that they are conscious of the moral condemnation of their actions as well, but reject it. One soldier says, “We’re not murderers. No matter what we do. We’re on active duty behind enemy lines, sent here by our senior commanders. We have a right to do everything we can do to save our own lives. The military decision is obvious. To turn them loose would be wrong.” I take it that he is not using “murderer” as a legal term, but as a moral one. To do what one has a right to do, even if it involves killing the innocent, does not make one a murderer. And, as we shall see in a moment,  the deciding voter does explicitly weigh the moral considerations.

An alternative interpretation of the argument is that having weighed military, legal, prudential and moral values and norms, the correct decision is to kill the farmers. This the all-things-considered sense of the right thing to do.

Weighting of the factors

Although some soldiers seemed to give the greatest weight to what was “militarily correct” the deciding vote gave the greatest weight to the fact that innocent civilians would be killed. “Something kept whispering in the back of my mind, it would be wrong to execute these unarmed men in cold blood.” This despite the fact that he also believed that “ the imperative military decision, the overriding one, the decision any great commander would have made: these guys never leave this place alive.”  It is not clear how to understand the fact that he thought the military decision was “overriding” and yet decided on the morally right course of action.

Was the decision correct?

My view is that it was. If there is any sense to the idea of there being morally binding principles which limit the use of deadly force in combat situations then there will have to be cases in which one has to adhere to them knowing that this will increase the combatants risk of death and make it more likely that one’s military objectives fail. Now there may be borderline cases , i.e. cases in which it is very difficult to determine whether the person approaching is a threat and one has to act , but the farmers do not fall in this category.

The fact that Marcus came to believe he made a mistake does not alter the issue of whether his decision was the right one. Of course, when one sees what the consequences of the decision were, when one is aware that fellow soldiers have died as a result of the decision, one will have second and third and fourth thoughts. But just as regret about a prudential decision which proves disastrous does not necessarily show that the decision was not rationally chosen, and that indeed given the same information one should choose the same way again, the fact that a decision had very bad consequences does not show that it wasn’t the correct decision from a moral standpoint.

Was this a moral dilemma?

If by that is meant was it the case that either decision would have been morally wrong then it was not (assuming you agree with me that the right thing to do was free the farmers). Can reasonable people come out the other way? Perhaps, but this would still not show that it was a moral dilemma. Only showing that both choices were morally wrong would do that. And, at least in this case, I do not see that possibility.

Posted by Gerald Dworkin at 12:40 AM | Permalink

Comments

An excellent an riveting essay.

To me the solution to the moral dilemma is clear.

I look forward to more contributions from Mr Dworkin

Posted by: Felix E F Larocca MD | Jul 12, 2010 9:44:18 AM

You've got me super curious what you would say about the herdsmen, Gerry? Did they face a moral dilemma, as you've defined it, in informing on the SEALs (who had just spared their lives) to the Taliban?

Posted by: Frances Madeson | Jul 12, 2010 11:36:12 AM

I worry that talking about moral dilemmas in explicitly deontic terms prevents us from thinking clearly about cases like this. If moral dilemmas are such that we act wrongly no matter what we do, then they seem mysterious. What we have in moral dilemmas are, rather, cases where it is permissible to act in some particular way but where doing so runs contrary to deep and important human concerns (this is the 'moral' part of the dilemma), and provides grounds for lasting regret. To use a phrase from Hursthouse, there is a moral remainder when we navigate through these dilemmas; something to lament, to make up, acknowledge or remedy. Moral dilemmas are, I think, fairly common.

Posted by: Barr | Jul 12, 2010 11:44:20 AM

“We’re not murderers. No matter what we do. We’re on active duty behind enemy lines, sent here by our senior commanders. We have a right to do everything we can do to save our own lives. The military decision is obvious. To turn them loose would be wrong.”

None of this is true. These soldiers have invaded Afghanistan on a whim (of their commanders). They have no right to be there, and the moral dilemma that they, and all soldiers should have contemplated was their act of joining up in the first place.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 12, 2010 1:46:15 PM

Alice,

You are so deeply unworthy of the name you've misappropriated you should seek professional help to decolonize your mind.

It can be done.

Posted by: vanderleun | Jul 12, 2010 4:15:11 PM

Alice, you don't think those soldiers have a right to do everything they can to protect their own lives?

Posted by: chris | Jul 12, 2010 5:38:49 PM

On Thursday Poem last, some of us were having a rip-roaring discussion about representations of (you should pardon me) "the other" (I just hate that term!). For me Dr. Dworkin's essay continues that conversation as a fine example, I think, of how even intelligent people like college professors can and do rent out huge chunks of their brains to Empire's ideology without awareness and shows some of the ways in which we come to be conditioned to think like the good little hegemons we are. It's just wild how half the time we walk around propagandizing against our own self-interest, without even knowing it, and worse, we believe ourselves to be asking the right challenging questions.

Aren't the herdsmen also moral actors in this drama, if not in Act One, then Act Two? Why don't we ever get to see them involved in sorting through the morality of the situation into which they were thrust by the accident of coming upon the soldiers? Aren't they capable of it? Is theirs a moral dilemma as defined by Dr. Dworkin or in Barr's interesting comment, or not?

By not “naturally” extending the exercise to the herdsmen as a matter of course-- because as thinking people we love complicating things, because it's in the complications that all the fissures for exploration reveal themselves—Dr. Dworkin is only partially showing the possibilities of leaning on philosophical principles to guide one's life and thinking; it's more than philosophy as party trick or conversational icebreaker but way less than the full toolkit to extend one's edge in the great rock climb on the craggy Wall of Wisdom.

My Armani tortoise-shell armor is already on, but I thought it was important to point out that even if Dr. Dworkin thought he was doing something “positive” or even “liberal” by floating a philosophical problem that supports mercy, the actual effect of the exercise in the way it was framed (even as it questioned frames and framing) was to reinforce stereotypical attitudes.

See how deep in the mire we are, how much we have to change, how “uncool” and frankly “anti-intellectual” it is not to?



Posted by: Frances Madeson | Jul 12, 2010 7:32:02 PM

Aren't the herdsmen also moral actors in this drama, if not in Act One, then Act Two? Why don't we ever get to see them involved in sorting through the morality of the situation into which they were thrust by the accident of coming upon the soldiers?

Maybe because their identities aren't known so we can't go and get quotes from them? I thought the point was to illustrate a moral dilemma with an actual real-world situation (and actual first-hand reports of people's moral thinking in this situation) rather than a more abstract discussion about how a hypothetical person might think in such a situation.

Posted by: Jesse M. | Jul 12, 2010 7:50:50 PM

Alice - you are right. Since the US actually funded the people they are now fighting and invading, it's all rather pathetically, and predictably, ironic and idiotic.

And if no one believes me, read Stephen Kinzer's book "Overthrow".

If you don't know about the hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of weapons and cash the US "accidentally" sent the Afghan fundamentalists via the Pakistani president (who took over through a coup, was anti-democracy, was a religious fundie and who wanted nukes - basically he was everything the US purports to despise, but the sort of person they will crawl to when, oohh, say, the Soviets invade a country during the cold war) during the 1980s, I'm afraid your reason to whinge at people like Alice should be minimal.

Posted by: Kim | Jul 12, 2010 8:03:35 PM

That's drawing the drawbridge over the moat rather quickly, isn't it? Dworkin offered a bunch of hypothetical options and considerations not documented in Lutrell and Lutrell's unnamed ghostwriter partner's account. BTW the only "quotes" in the version as presented are the recollections of this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Luttrell

Caveat emptor, Jesse, on both the book and the coming-to-a-cineplex-near-you Hollywood movie. War sells. Or it will (as Alice has reminded us) for as long as we keep buying it and wrapping it up in sparkly gift paper and festive curlicued bows to present to "others."

Posted by: Frances Madeson | Jul 12, 2010 8:20:22 PM

And if foreign soldiers showed up in the middle of your goat pasture, what would you do? It seems a bit imperious to suggest that the herdsmen have any moral obligation whatsoever to consider the welfare of heavily armed foreign invaders against that of themselves and their families.

Posted by: Vicki Baker | Jul 12, 2010 9:51:26 PM

Frances, I think Dworkin is exercising the courtesy of examining one's own moral failings before those of others. As the citizen of a democracy, he has extended this notion from self to agents of his elected government.

Posted by: Sagredo | Jul 13, 2010 4:34:09 AM

Vicki,
Well answered! And how refreshing to see things from that perspective if only for a hot minute.

But then what should we make of the official account of how Luttrell came to ultimately survive to tell his lucrative tale? (From the Wikipedia entry)

Luttrell was the only survivor of the SEAL team. Badly wounded, he managed to walk and crawl seven miles to evade capture, during which he killed six more Taliban fighters. He was given shelter by tribesmen from Sabri-Minah, a Pashtun village. (This was done because of "Lokhay Warkawa", a Pashtun belief that any stranger in need of shelter must be given it.) [10] The villagers sheltered him and provided medical aid, and refused Taliban demands that Luttrell be turned over to them. After several days one of the village elders trekked twenty miles to a US base to reveal Luttrell's location, and he was finally rescued six days after the battle by US forces.

(Plot point two?)

Sagredo,
You may very well be correct. Maybe by simply presenting this artifact of Pentagon/corporate publishing/Hollywood myth-making for our moral consideration, he seeks to spotlight the moral bankruptcy of the larger enterprise. If so, canny!

Posted by: Frances Madeson | Jul 13, 2010 6:09:42 AM

To see a moral dilemma here requires far too much walking back in time in order to justify the soldiers initial position in the story. For their mission to even have a chance of being justified the war itself would need to be justified morally. That has never been satisfactorily accomplished for my likes.

But lets assume it was. Even then the scenario doesn't seem to rise to the level of a moral dilemma. I think we can assume this was not a time critical assassination, else the military would have chosen other means. As such, retreat should be perfectly acceptable in the face of civilian casualties. Certainly the Geneva Conventions would seem to demand as much. Further, both the chosen course of action or the murder of the civilians would likely lead to the compromise of the mission anyway, particularly since there was no reason to believe the objective could be carried out immediately after the farmers stumble upon them. It seems that the one option not considered, retreat, was the best option by far.

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 13, 2010 7:50:46 AM

Wow Cyrus. That makes Sunday poem read a whole lot different, the bit about the snow covering the tracks. I love 3QD! It's so fascinating and thrilling to ride the waves and catch all the hairpin turns on the narrative switchbacks. (And now to dig into Tuesday poem!)

Posted by: Frances Madeson | Jul 13, 2010 9:26:34 AM

One says, “I think we should kill them, because we can't let them go.” This same man also said a page or two later, "We're not murderers. No matter what we do. We're on active duty behind enemy lines, sent here by our senior commanders. We have a right to do everything we can to save our own lives. The military decisions is obvious. To turn them loose would be wrong."

Posted by: Corky | Jul 13, 2010 10:07:43 AM

vanderleun:

""It is impossible to conceive a more troublesome or more garrulous patriotism; it wearies even those who are disposed to respect it."
-Alexis de Tocuevillle

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 13, 2010 2:04:13 PM

"Alice, you don't think those soldiers have a right to do everything they can to protect their own lives?" -chris

If you believe that they do, then you must believe that a thief, surprised by the person whose property he has invaded, has a right to kill that person. And ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 13, 2010 2:09:20 PM

Cyrus,

Exactly right. The soldiers made the fundamental moral error when they agreed to take part in an immoral war half way around the world. Once they made that error, killing civilians is a likely outcome. This should be obvious.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 13, 2010 3:07:46 PM

Even if the war was perfectly justified, armed men killing unarmed civilians can never be justified. It is nothing but cold blooded murder.

Posted by: J.Hawkins | Jul 13, 2010 3:14:36 PM

Once one has made a morally wrong decision, does it matter what one subsequently does?

Posted by: Sagredo | Jul 13, 2010 8:24:51 PM

"Once one has made a morally wrong decision, does it matter what one subsequently does?"

Yes, of course it does. One can do another wrong thing, or do something to try to make up for the wrong thing that was done.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 13, 2010 10:31:13 PM

Alice, once the soldiers have joined up and shipped out to Afghanistan, does it matter what they subsequently do? What should they do?

Posted by: Sagredo | Jul 13, 2010 11:05:52 PM

They can do what many soldiers have done, which is request conscious objector status, which is difficult but not impossible to get, once a fellow is already in the 'service'. Or they can refuse to fight, and go to jail for their beliefs. The army jealously guards the number who do this, but I've met some, and know of others through an organization called Courage To Resist.

Have you not heard the Winter Soldier testimonies, made famous by John Kerry and others during the Vietman War? There have been a whole series of events where Iraq and Afghan invasion veterans tell the reasons they have been compelled to take up these kinds of resistance to military commands that they cannot in conscience, obey. Shocking, horrifying, and truly evil things go on.

It's not surprising if you haven't heard these, though, because even though the press and the Congress have been invited to hear them, they've mostly been ignored.

I personally believe they are just as courageous as those who fight, and maybe, in a way, more so. They suffer from their peers and commanders, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 14, 2010 12:20:09 AM

Alice, Certainly the theif has a right to defend himself if the owner pulls out a gun, or maybe he should just stand there? Would you just stand there?

It doesn't matter if the original act was immoral-- just because a pregnant chick went down a back alley to purchase drugs doesn't mean her rape is off-limits to moral discussion.


I mean, I know its easy for somebody with no military experience to offer surrender or "conscious objector," but the reality is that the military places highest value on completion of missions. Thats the only reason it exists. Not completing a given mission requires severely massive problems, like a huge casualty rate in the unit, or was attacked by something bigger, etc....

Posted by: chris | Jul 14, 2010 6:38:43 AM

American soldier to shepherds:

"It's nothing personal. We have to kill you to complete our mission. We would have massive problems if we don't complete our mission. No hard feelings, right?"

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 14, 2010 10:10:45 AM

"The pioneers of a warless world are the youths who refuse military service".
Albert Einstein

Posted by: Frank | Jul 14, 2010 10:37:20 AM

chris,
It's true I have no military experience. That has been my choice, but I recognize that since I am a woman there is no pressure on me to be a soldier. And, first during Vietnam, and, everyone help us*, again during this horror, I've come to see that each soldier is a victim as well as those he wars against.

Surely you are aware that the suicide rate among returning vets has been at historic levels for years. Why do you think that is? I believe it's because of this very moral dilemma; kill a stranger or risk the death of a comrade - a choice that is no choice, something R.D.Laing described as schizophrenia-inducing.

It's important to say that to condemn war is not to condemn these soldiers. That is not my place or intention. From all I've seen, even the soldier who returns seemingly unscathed has suffered for his choice.

That said, I still say that for a thief to kill his victim is to compound the immorality. What does 'moral' mean? Does it mean what most people would do, what a reflex would dictate? Or does it imply a more difficult choice? Even American law adds to the penalty for use of a deadly weapon in commission of a theft, and also the Geneva Convention, something instituted to answer this very problem, states that, not only is no soldier required to follow an immoral order, he, or she, is required to refuse it. It is meant to be a step forward in the moral strengthening of life on earth.

And as I say that, I am aware of the tremendous difficulty of doing that for a member of the military. I've looked into the eyes of young men who described facing these choices, and seen the pain there, because even to speak about it to civilians is seen as a betrayal. Here again is the deep evil of war; it divides those who pick up arms to kill from the rest of humanity. Even as they perform what is called their duty, many cannot square it with their own conscience. But again, does 'moral' mean the easy thing, the reflex?

*I've decided, since I can't believe in gods, to say, "everyone help us". That's who I want to appeal to.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 14, 2010 12:42:16 PM

Hi Chris! You said this (yes?): "Alice, Certainly the theif has a right to defend himself if the owner pulls out a gun, or maybe he should just stand there? Would you just stand there?"

So, say the thief does kill the home owner then is caught by the police. The police will have (at least) two charges yes? (a) Breaking-and-entering; AND (b) murder. Do you think the thief can make a positive defense of the murder charge by saying something like: "It was self-defense; I had to kill him because he was about to kill me."?

Now, if you say 'yes', I would agree if we are in the realm of word-play and pedantry: Yes, the thief can make a theoretically plausible argument. Then in the analysis you move to the 'real world'.

It seems to me highly unlikely that there is a 'real world' situation where the thief can justifibly use 'self-defense'. The situation would have to be something like: I (the thief) and my buddy had broken in to the home. I turned on the lights and once we heard and saw the home owner with a gun we dropped to the floor, hands behind our heads, and yelled over and over: "We give up! We give up!" The home owner came over to my buddy and put the gun to his head and said: "I am going to put a bullet in the back of your head at the count of 3. He counted to 3 and then shot my buddy! He then came over to me and said the same thing. He started counting and I did not let him get to 3: We started to wrestle and in the course of that the gun went off and kill him."

I am sure in the course of human history something like this has actually happened, and I am quite happy to allow for this possible event (Yay! for a justice system which adjudicates each situation). BUT, speaking colloquially: In all probability, this is not likely. Therefore, I am not sure you really mean what you imply in your statement I quoted.

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 14, 2010 12:44:47 PM

Alice,

You can't simultaneously claim that these soldiers have no right to defend themselves and then say you don't condemn them.


czrpb,

"Do you think the thief can make a positive defense of the murder charge by saying something like: "It was self-defense; I had to kill him because he was about to kill me."

"Yes, the thief can make a theoretically plausible argument."

I don't get what you're asking.

Posted by: chris | Jul 14, 2010 6:00:16 PM

Chris, I think the difference of opinion here is that Alice (and myself) don't consider it "self-defense" to kill unarmed civilians in the attempt to avoid future risk from armed combatants.

Here's a question based on czrpb's story of the thief who defended himself: is freely participating in an aggressive war an greater crime than theft? Do soldiers who freely join an aggressive war have a moral right to self-defense?

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 15, 2010 2:45:58 AM

Cyrus,

Now having the full story, and given a similar situation, would you kill the shepherds if you knew you and your friends -whom you trust with your life- would face certain death if you didn't? There is 3 of them, and 4 of you and everybody there has a family back home.


I think everybody, no matter what their situation, has a right to self-defense, -or to put it more clearly, has a right to place themselves and their friends/family above everybody else on the world's food chain.

Posted by: chris | Jul 15, 2010 6:35:50 AM

Chris,

Your question does not reflect the reality of the situation as described either in the post or the description on wikipedia (which is sourced from the book and interviews). They did have other options besides kill or be killed. They could have just left the situation, or non-fatally disabled the men. They could have called for backup (and probably be declined and evaced).

But sure, I have a self-preservation instinct too. I don't know if I would make a moral decision in the same situation. Certainly if I was in the hypothetical situation you lay out, assuming absolute knowledge of my future death if action was not taken, I would act to save my own life. I'm not sure that makes the action moral; it seems like a rather amoral situation to begin with.

I think you are confusing "rights" with actions that are understandable, if regrettable, and possibly immoral in some situations. Sometimes people make understandable, even sympathetic, decisions that are not moral. Determining an act amoral or immoral does not mean one has no empathy for those who carried it out, or that one thinks they deserve additional punishment. Empathy toward an act, or the lack of it, does not determine the act's morality.

Lets us call aggressive war what it is: an immoral act of domination involving the death and destruction of people and property. People who volunteer for such actions clearly bear some of that immorality, even when there are (many) mitigating factors. I still feel sympathy for their plight, and certainly do not believe most are immoral people.

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 15, 2010 7:53:55 AM

Thank you, Cyrus. That clarifies what I was trying to say.

Chris, don't you think that being involved in an agressive war, an invasion of other people's homes is a moral dilemma?

You said:

"I think everybody, no matter what their situation, has a right to self-defense, -or to put it more clearly, has a right to place themselves and their friends/family above everybody else on the world's food chain."


This way of being in the world will literally destroy the world's food chain.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 15, 2010 12:28:16 PM

Cyrus,

It actually reflects it pretty well...Behind enemy lines, only 4 men, and their one advantage -stealth- gone. The risk of death is huge, if not absolute. That risk is compounded by the fact that the Seals predicted, accurately, that if they let those men go, that they'd be screwed. Is the total morality of the situation affected by the somewhat ironic fact that 3 soldiers died in order to spare 3 snitch farmers?


Alice de Tocqueville,


No. War is about as morally relevant as gravity -its simply a fact and constant reality. The soldiers in war only act immorally if they go from that which is militarily sensible, to what is unusually cruel for the sake of cruelty.

Posted by: chris | Jul 15, 2010 5:55:50 PM

chris,
Your pretense that war is normal - 'simply a fact' - is, thankfully, not true. It's only carried on by a very small minority in any given country or culture you can name. By far the majority of the human race are perfectly capable of living in peace and mutual prosperity.

I notice there's been no real response from you to my question about why so many Iraq war vets kill themselves..

If I were in the position of those soldiers, I can say that I might very well kill to save my life; that's why I don't 'condemn them'. But I do know one thing; if I chose to kill those Afghans, I would suffer for it for the rest of my life, just as I would if I didn't, and my fellow soldiers were killed. That's why war is evil itself.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 15, 2010 7:53:02 PM

Alice,

Its carried out by a very small minority simply because only a very small minority holds power. War has been a constant theme through out recorded history, was no doubt part of a prehistoric era, and is easily found even among many our of closest relatives today-the so-called raiding parties fighting for trees and territory. As long as resources are limited, and leaders are tasked with promoting the welfare of their group, there will be armed conflict/war.

I don't know the clinically diagnosed reasons why so many vets have killed themselves...but from what i've been told from my fellow junior enlisted all the way to senior officers whom have been deployed multiple times is that some people bring the war home with them, for some reason don't get or receive help and they simply reach their breaking point. For some its the stress of constantly being a target, others its particular traumatic events or the loss of their friends, and certainly for others its some horrible, possible 'immoral' thing that they witnessed, like some child getting caught in the crossfire or a family in a car that didn't understand the warning shot to stop....


Regardless, I'm betting that the reason we take differing perspectives is not so much a difference in a common human morality, but the temperament and attitude we both have toward the people involved in this scenario and to war more specifically. I'm a military guy, a line medic, who really cares only about my own guys and more or less hates both afghanistan and iraq. I'm aggressive, impatient, and lack hesitation when it comes to mine, or my guys', safety. So although i'm no special forces member, the situation is very real to me.

Posted by: chris | Jul 15, 2010 9:17:18 PM

Chris, I don't want to oversimplify or misunderstand your point. But. The ability to open fire on people whose countries you dislike may be more a function of your special training as a military medic than a reflection of a larger moral dilemma. I have as a close friend an Army lawyer who has served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. She has respect and affection for the people of both countries, has learned Arabic, and will learn at least one of the major languages of Afghanistan. Should it therefore be harder for her to defend herself if push came to shove? My point is that the disaffinity for Iraquis and Afghans that you cop to may have a moral dimension, as well as serving your efficiency. And -- does morality serve us, or does it cost us?

Posted by: Elatia Harris | Jul 15, 2010 10:02:20 PM

Hi Chris! (I will not revisit my story unless you want to; seems like the discussion has moved on.)

You said: "I'm a military guy, a line medic, who really cares only about my own guys and more or less hates both afghanistan and iraq. I'm aggressive, impatient, and lack hesitation when it comes to mine, or my guys', safety."

This is pretty clear so I am curious; would it be fair to interpret you as saying that your own guys' lives are worth* more than an Iraqi's or Afghan's? And if so, why would that be? What is it about "your guys" that puts their lives ahead of the others?

Perhaps you do not like hypotheticals, but let me try another. Perhaps we are both US citizens (I do not know your nationality, but either way let us assume we are the same). Now you do not really know me. So say you come across an Iraqi, in Iraq, who (somehow, remember hypothetical) is about to push a button which will (again, somehow) kill me. 1 person, you do not know, but of the same nationality. Would you kill him in order to save me?

* Now I meant to use "worth" as that word is loaded with connotations.

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 15, 2010 11:12:01 PM

Is the total morality of the situation affected by the somewhat ironic fact that 3 soldiers died in order to spare 3 snitch farmers?

No. The morality of a decision can not be judged in a post-hoc fashion. Evidence for morality claims should only include the information available to those who made a decision under discussion.

Can you explain why the situation is ironic? I don't get it.

I guess you see the fact that the farmers may have other concerns above the concerns of the U.S. as immoral. I would strongly disagree with that, and would suggest you reverse the situation: someone invades your country, and the old government goes into hiding while conducting an insurgency. Do you funnel information to that insurgency, or do you immediately adopt the goals of the invaders?

I'm sure the invaders would call you all sorts of names, including "snitch" and "immoral" if you funneled information. Would they be correct?

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 16, 2010 4:21:14 AM

czrpb,

"And if so, why would that be? What is it about "your guys" that puts their lives ahead of the others?"

They're Americans, but above that, they're American soldiers, and above that they entrust me with their lives when injured. Foreign nationals always come second.

"Would you kill him in order to save me?"

Of course.

Cyrus Hall,
"Can you explain why the situation is ironic?"

The Seals decided to try preserve 3 lives by betting on the slight hope that these farmers wouldn't go to the taliban, and what happened was an outright battle that led to more lives lost than the mission otherwise called for.

If, say, communist Soviets invaded America, I'd definitely be up in the mountains planting road side bombs and reading the terrorist handbook. Is this somehow hypocritical of me? No, because everybody fights from some perspective, and I choose the American one because this is where my family is. Its perfectly sensible to me that a terrorist came to be because he feels he was defending his own family from me. That would be very moral from his perspective.

Posted by: chris | Jul 16, 2010 6:43:56 AM

Hi Chris! I would like to just post here a thank you for engaging with me. I know it takes time and everyone's is limited.

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 16, 2010 10:34:26 AM

Hi Chris! I have three quick followups then:

1. Would you kill the Iraqi to save a foreign national of another country, say a Swede, a Chinese, or an Iranian?

2. Does the age of an Iraqi or Afghan matter? (Ie. What if there was a 10yr boy with the herders?)

3. Why are we in Iraq & Afghanistan?

If we (it seems we are both US citizens) are there (mainly) to 'get the terrorists' should not that have been accomplished by now?

If we are there (mainly) to 'help the people' would that not mean choosing to sacrifice some of our (military) people for them?

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 16, 2010 10:45:39 AM

czrpb,

1. After I treat the Americans, and those affiliated with me or put implicitly under my care, then its just standard triage.

2. No.

3. We're in these countries simply for the same few reasons everybody goes to war...security, land, resources.

Helping the people involves providing local security, setting up government, and supporting infrastructure, and to this end, we've lost plenty of soldiers.

Posted by: chris | Jul 17, 2010 8:44:04 AM

chris,

I am convinced that the sort of US imperialism that you are fighting for is detrimental to the people of this country. It sucks an inordinate amount of money from us, and is causing more trouble for us than it is solving.

According to your 'morality', I should be celebrating the death of every soldier, for that is one less tool of imperialism, just as you said I should condemn them because of what I believe about their mission. Yet, I don't; I'm horrified at the sacrificing of (mostly) young Americans as much as their victims.

What's wrong with me? Am I wrong not to hate and be willing to kill anyone who gets in my way or goes against what I think is right?

I'm curious what your idea of 'morality' is. Does it mean just to do whatever pops into your head to do, whatever you feel like doing?

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 17, 2010 12:25:00 PM

"Its perfectly sensible to me that a terrorist came to be because he feels he was defending his own family from me. That would be very moral from his perspective"

From this it is obvious that Chris has no standard of morality. My "morality" requires that I kill you to complete my mission; your "morality" requires that you kill me to save your life and your family. Chris is a trained killer and an important part of that training is to ignore such moral dilemmas as they are detrimental to killing efficiency. Chris is simply not equipped to discuss the morality of war.

Posted by: J. Hawkins | Jul 17, 2010 2:09:17 PM

Alice,

The comments I've been making in this thread are from a deployed perspective -the same perspective that the Seals were in-, where the threat against life and limb are immediate and real. An aggressive attitude and an overtly dominant stance toward others are essential to survival. But when my life is not on the line, or the issues are more distant and abstract, the morality takes a similar path of distance and abstraction where intense emotions of hatred or dominance really don't emenate so easily.

You'll find that as you loose the need to fear for your life and the lives of those you care about, your version of morality becomes equally relaxed and encompasses more and more people as deserving of this or that. An example would be how I am able to really consider the loss of life and limb on both sides in the Palenstinian/Isreali conflicts to be horrible and such. And although its easier for me to symphathize with the Isrealies, I'm so distant from action, I'm able to distance my morality into a greater abstraction of more than just "him or me" but of the quality of humanity in general.

Posted by: chris | Jul 17, 2010 2:22:57 PM


Killology

Posted by: Louise Gordon | Jul 17, 2010 2:34:48 PM

That's awfully big of you, chris! So...morality only comes into the picture when no action is required?

You sound like the teapartier I spoke to about "Christianity" teaching that God doesn't want us to kill (or murder). Her response:

"We're not God."

I think this is called "unclear on the concept", that is, morality is meant to apply to more than mere reflecting when it doesn't count. It's not an abstraction.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 17, 2010 2:45:05 PM

J. Hawkins,

Since I'm the medic, most of my training is how to be a professional life saver. But out of my combat training, like clearing buildings, setting up road blocks, or reacting to contact, I have yet to receive the class on "How Soldiers should ignore moral delimmas." I've been given alot of ROE briefings though --and part of that ROE is that when an Iraqi or Afghan (enemy combatant or not) requires medical attention and the tactical situation permits, I do all I can. Which is what I do. The claim that my training is designed to make me ignore moral dilemmas is flat-out, factually incorrect.

Posted by: chris | Jul 17, 2010 2:47:33 PM

Have you ever heard of Gen. Smedley Butler? At one time (1940) he was the most decorated Marine in US history, but he came to regret his military career. He said,

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

This is still true of the American war machine, and it doesn't even include the incredible ripping-off of us that is the military's entire enterprise.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 17, 2010 3:07:29 PM

By the way, Frances Madesen's comments here are, I think, the most insightful.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 17, 2010 3:08:47 PM

Alice de Tocqueville,

" So...morality only comes into the picture when no action is required?"

Thats not what I said. I claimed that the less you feel threatened by someone, the more inclined you are to include them in your morality.

This notion that there is some kind of universal, dispassionate moral standard that simply exists for all humans, for all perspectives doesn't make any sense to me.

Posted by: chris | Jul 17, 2010 3:08:57 PM

Thanks for that link, Louise!

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 17, 2010 3:17:43 PM

Hi Chris! Again, thx for participating.

So, I think my final question is that if we (really you!) are there because of "security, land, resources" and your paramount concern is your life, I would expect you to do all you can to get out. What is there worth dying for? What am I missing?

If the mission is one or a combination of the three you mentioned -- "security, land, resources" -- and you agree with the mission, then taking each:

1. You are willing to kill people for "land"? Do you want to take over Iraq and/or Afghanistan and make it part of the US?
2. You are willing to kill people for "resources"? Presumably oil in Iraq and what in Afghanistan?
3. You are willing to kill people for "security"? (This seems the most likely.) But why are we in Iraq? How are we threaten by Iraqis? How about Afghanistan? The terrorists? The Taliban? How long is it going to take to get rid of one or both of those threats? Why are we doing anything to help the people? Why not just get the terrorists/Taliban and get out?

If you do not agree with the mission, then why would you go or why are you there? Is it because of your obligation/duty as a member of the military? If so, then you are willing to kill people to meet your obligation right? Duty is more important than some/certain/particular people's lives?

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 17, 2010 6:16:34 PM

Hi Chris! You said: "This notion that there is some kind of universal, dispassionate moral standard that simply exists for all humans, for all perspectives doesn't make any sense to me."

Unless you or an innocent are in imminent danger, does not another person's right to life outweight everything else?

This is equal between me and say any particular "terrorist": We each ought not be attempting, encouraging, enabling, etc any attempt on the other's life. I do not get to kill him unless I (or an innocent) is under imminent threat, and they are not to attempt to kill me because the US supports Israel, which is (in his mind) threatening (subjugating, etc) the Palestinians.

For me, it makes the situation the Seals were in easy: They were not in imminent danger and therefore the herders' right to life overrides the assessment of being told on to the Taliban and later killed: The certainty of killing the herders outweighs the probability of being killed later.

Posted by: czrpb | Jul 17, 2010 6:52:33 PM

A fascinating debate, both because of the strength of the arguments on both sides, and the utmost gravity of the questions ...

I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with tChris and Alice.

I agree with Chris that war is a fact of human life, always was there, always will be. This said, in terms of statistics, we (the human race) appear to be making progress, however. Cf historical charts of war casualties).

It is noble to hope and act against war IMHO, but assigning moral blame to voluntary participating soldiers just does not cut it: this war, when all is said and done, was decided democratically by the majority of American people. One may not agree with it, but unless you disagree with the rules of democracy -and then ... well, let's not go there, or let's just go back to Churchill and his quote on the inconveniences of democracies- you can't just issue blanket statements (war is wrong) and call it quits. The specific murkiness of this current war does encourage such statements, yet do not make them more true. Putting it differently, in a perhaps more obvious setting: What would you have said as a British or French in 1939-1945? War is wrong, we give up, please keep adding to the numbers in the trains on the road to deportation camps?

Yet I cannot side with those who believe that killing the farmers was the right thing to do. The cold and tragic fact is that if you voluntary enlist in the military, you voluntarily risk your life. And this risk should not (moral) be suppressed or superseded by the killing of civilians on foreign soil. Yes, you may very well end up paying with your life for this choice, as those seals did.
This it seems Kris may not agree with. (And yep, I know it's all to easy to say behind a computer in the US. That doesn't make it less so, however.)

Not can I agree with those who deplore the farmers actions calling them snitches. (On the latter Chris is very consistent: he does not see their act as immoral, and understands their action given it'd do the same in a reversed situation, if I understood him right). You are invaded, on your property, in your country. On moral ground, self defense is perfectly justified in this case.

With respect to the original article, I found the main point, that this was not a true case of moral dilemna, very compelling. Retreat would have been the best choice. But go tell that to members of the military elite ... At this point ego and pride, two of a few fundamental ingredients that pushed these men to be soldiers in the first place (along with selflessness, patriotism, ... ) overrule.

Posted by: jdennings | Jul 17, 2010 9:38:47 PM

jdennings-

Well, I certainly missed where I voted for either war. Maybe what you meant is that the representatives voted for them. Except they didn't even do that in the case of Iraq - no formal declaration of war was every made.

Now, strangely for a democracy, even though more than half the country is now against both wars, our representatives remain almost entirely supportive of the enterprise. One must, at some point, ask who is being represented.

Chris, et al.-

It seems pretty clear that there are two competing sets of moral reasoning being deployed here. I don't think either are wrong, which is likely why jdennings finds both sides of the conversation compelling. On one side we have the reasoning of self-defense: kill or be killed. I think almost everyone on both sides understands and accepts that maxim when deployed in a situation that calls for self-defense. On the other side we have people who see aggressive war and occupation as immoral, as it deprives others of life and liberty. This too seems to be accepted by everyone.

However, these aren't incongruous ideas if one defines the terms a little more, particularly the concept of defense. It seems like the crux of the issue is Alice's example of the thief. Lets, to make the idea more clear, turn him (or her) into a robber. This makes the use of force clear on robber's part. He's not killing anyone to start with, but he's certainly putting the option on the table in order to get what he wants. Sadly for the robber, the person he has chosen to burgle has a hand gun.

If the two sides enter a standoff, both believing the other is likely to shoot, would it be equally moral for either to pull the trigger? Clearly not. The robber has forced the situation, and has chosen to put his life in jeopardy by his actions. By threatening the life of another without reason he has provoked a situation in which is own life is threatened as well.

The targeted person did no so such thing. His right to self-defense is clear, whereas the robber has partially forfeited his. His initial actions immoral in their creation of the very life and death situation he now faces. I'll leave out the "partial" part of the forfeiture beyond saying that self-defense does not give ones right to act non-proportionally to deal with a threat.

This whole scenario is a rather transparent allegory to aggressive war, and the role of non-combatants such as the farmers. Chris, I think you're trying to escape the moral responsibility that comes with joining an aggressive militarily force via the use of false moral equivalence. In other words, you seem to be answering the original post's question, "Was this a moral dilemma?," in the affirmative, and putting the farmers into the role of another robber.

The actual situation is much more complex. Many Afghanis are no fans of the Taliban either (or the Warlords who we have empowered). Likely the farmers were pressured, possibly under penalty of death, to inform on American troop movements. Robbers don't always come in ones, and may fight amongst themselves.

But it's also not right for one robber to overthrow another, and then claim their stolen goods as their own.

"We morn our loses, but never attribute them to our own greedy violence."

Best,
Cyrus

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 18, 2010 9:02:14 AM

Oops, I also wanted to post a link to this old documentary from '83 I ran across this morning. It follows Marine recruits through the 11 week bootcamp process. The rest of the seven part series seems very worth watching as well.

Anybody's Son Will Do (part 1/6, other parts linked in the side-bar)

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Jul 18, 2010 9:06:18 AM

jdennings,

I have a not-exactly-minor quibble with your statement that the war was approved by a majority.

In addition to what Cyrus said, there's the fact that George Bush II was never elected at all.

We all know what happened in in Florida in 2000 (and I challenge anyone to find legal precedents for that), although most don't know the manipulations that Jeb Bush's admin. pulled to make it even close.

But not many want to admit that he did not win in 2004, either! That election was decided by who carried Ohio, and the vote there was faked by rigged voting machines as well as thousands of Kerry votes suppressed by the criminal manipulation the Ohio official in charge of elections, one Earl Blackwell, (who was also chairman of the Ohio For Bush campaign!) accomplished, for instance by clearing students off the voter roles, piling up extra, unused voting machines in Republican districts while there was plenty of advance notice of high rates of new registered voters in poor precincts, where they delibetately sent few voting machines. People waited HOURS in the rain to vote, how many gave up we'll never know. As Mark Crispin Miller put it in his book on this, "The Republicans tried about 8 ways to steal that election, and they all worked." He is far from the only source on this.

Add to that the outright elaborate deceptions of the White House and the abysmal performance of the media. No one who gets their 'news' from TV, as most Americans do, would be aware of the evidence behind these allegations, and thus consent is manufactured
This is not a democracy any more, if it ever was one.

Posted by: Alice de Tocqueville | Jul 18, 2010 2:15:58 PM

I wish I would have seen this when it first came out. I believe there is much I could have contributed to the comments and analysis of these types of moral dilemnas that soldiers frequently find themselves in.

I am a currently serving officer in the Army(US) who has deployed to Iraq on three occasions. If anyone is still interested in discussing this I would be more than willing to give some insight.

Posted by: Tim | Nov 29, 2012 1:54:38 AM

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