March 08, 2010
Dying to Live: Must the reaper be so grim?
How would you choose to die if you could choose your own death? This isn’t a question that gets asked very often, but it’s an interesting and important one to consider. It’s probably safe to say that most of us would choose to die without suffering, at the end of a long life.
To some extent, we can choose our own deaths. When faced with an illness that is likely to be terminal, we don’t need to go out fighting. If one chooses instead to accept the terminal nature of the condition and make the most of his remaining time, palliative care may be the way to go.
If assisted suicide were an option, it would likely provide the most pleasant of deaths. Even with palliative care to minimize suffering in terminal illness, gradual demise can be unsettling for both the ill individual and for loved ones. Avoiding this experience could reasonably be a desirable option.
This is not to say that assisted suicide would be the best choice for everyone. If discomfort can be effectively managed through palliative care, the additional time could be valuable. One could get his affairs in order, make amends for regrets, and maybe do a few of those “things we’d like to do before we die”.
And, of course, do-it-yourself suicide in is always an option.
Most of us have a very strong aversion to death. Natural selection sees to it that those animals that are best able to avoid it survive longer and have more offspring. Aversion to death and strategies for its avoidance obviously confer survival benefits.
Aversion to death may also develop through associative learning. Death often follows painful and unpleasant circumstances, like illness or catastrophic injury. The temporal relationship with the distasteful circumstances reinforces the notion that death and suffering go hand in hand.
While our aversion to death is understandable, it isn’t entirely rational. The well established association between death and suffering is misleading. Death can be as easy as going to sleep. In fact, some people do die in their sleep.
In many cases, it’s not death itself that causes suffering, but our emotional responses to it. A great deal of pain is typically experienced by the loved ones of the deceased. It makes sense that we miss people who were once important in our lives. Unfortunately, the bereavement process can be intensely painful and lengthy. It isn’t uncommon for people to dwell on a significant loss to the point where it impairs their capacity to enjoy life. If we were to develop more accepting attitudes toward death and a greater ability to move on after loss, a lot of suffering could be avoided.
Some of the pain associated with death is caused by our own efforts to delay it. Modern medicine is often praised for its success in treating once fatal illnesses and lengthening the average human lifespan. We tend to overlook the undeniable fact that many of these lifesaving medical treatments are quite awful to endure. Cancer treatment may be more successful than it’s ever been, but it isn’t any more appealing. Disfiguring surgeries, side effects of chemotherapy and radiation, and painful diagnostic tests are par for the course.
Saving a human life is perceived to be one of the most noble things a person can do. It’s often used as justification for animal research. But what is the rational basis for our opinion that being alive is better than being dead? Are we sure that saving a person’s life is doing him a favor? The individual whose life is extended will perceive that this is the case because he’s acquired an aversion to death. He would similarly appreciate assistance in avoiding any event that he fears, whether the fear is rational or not.
We’ve all been in states of unconsciousness; from sleep, general anesthesia, or fainting. Nobody minds being unconscious. Deadness is not an unpleasant state. Human and animal suffering for the purpose of delaying a ‘not unpleasant’ state cannot generally be justified on a rational basis. Evidence-based medicine has made it possible to extend our lives, but where is the evidence that we should?
Life is hard. Often it doesn’t feel much like a precious gift. Sure, there are good things in life, happy times, excitement, and fun; but there are also tough times, disappointments, and pain. Are the happy times more frequent and pleasurable than the bad times are frequent and aversive? Think of the worst suffering that you’ve experienced in your life. What would make reliving it worthwhile?
I suspect that many of us wouldn’t want to repeat our lives exactly as they happened. The painful experiences are too unpleasant. Yet most of us seem to be willing to endure great suffering for the opportunity to continue to live. We hope that the future will be better than the past. In all likelihood, however, the future will not be much better or worse than the past was, on average. There will be happy times and sad times, pleasures, suffering, and stress.
I question whether we even fully comprehend what it means to be alive. When we talk about wanting to live, what we generally mean is that we want to be conscious. Most people wouldn’t want to live indefinitely in a coma or sleep-like state.
If, by living, we mean conscious, we’re not really living when we’re asleep. Edgar Allen Poe described sleep as “little slices of death”. The key difference between sleep and death is the ability to wake up. It’s the permanence of the unconscious state that makes death so off-putting. Our perception that our consciousness is regained on waking rests on the assumption that the same consciousness that goes to sleep, awakens. This is not a safe assumption.
There is little reason to suppose that a person embodies a single, unique consciousness that endures throughout his or her lifespan. Consciousness, or the perception of being alive, is generated by the brain, the physical environment, and the body’s physiological conditions. These elements change continuously, such that a unique consciousness can exist only instantaneously. Memories generate the illusion that it is sustained.
There is no physical aspect of ourselves that is constant throughout our lives. The atoms and molecules that comprise us are continuously being replaced. Our genes undergo mutation and their expression is altered by environmental influences. Our brains change too; through learning, growth, aging, and injury. Obviously, we don’t have the same bodies that we had when we were born. Those physical bodies have already ceased to be.
“Non-physical” features also change over time. Our collection of memories varies as old memories fade and new ones are formed. Large parts of our memories can be altered by disease or trauma. Personality traits, attitudes, and opinions are also changeable; and sensations and perceptions of the environment are renewed continuously.
These highly variable physical and non-physical aspects generate self-identity, which therefore can’t be constant either. If the things that make us who we are are constantly changing, how much do they have to change before we can no longer be considered the same people we were?
The differences that distinguish one individual from another can be subtle. For example, identical twins are very similar genetically and physically, yet they are not the same person. If such minute differences can distinguish identical twins from one another, they can distinguish us from ‘ourselves’ at different points in time.
It follows from this that what we understand to be a single lifetime is actually lived by a large set of unique individuals. We exist only instantaneously and we aren’t the same individuals who will die with our bodies. There can be no reason for us to fear bodily death.
Our attitudes toward death should be reconsidered also because they are no longer adaptive. Pollution, overconsumption, and dwindling essential resources pose serious threats to humanity. These problems are exacerbated by continued population growth. Efforts to extend lives aren’t in anyone’s best interests when they impair individuals’ enjoyment of life and threaten the population as a whole.
Our fear of death also affects they way in which we approach disease. The unpleasant nature of cancer treatments should be good reason to emphasize prevention. As human exposure to carcinogens rises and cancer rates climb, however, efforts to combat cancer focus mainly on the development of new treatments. We don’t seem to mind the disease too much if it doesn’t kill us.
The growing number of cancer survivors is both an indication of medical progress and cause for concern. Not only are more people surviving, but more people are getting cancer. As the environment becomes more toxic, medical advances enable those who are most susceptible to environmental illnesses to survive and have children. We are simultaneously making our environment less healthy and inhibiting our capacity to adapt. In the future, it may be normal to battle cancer on multiple occasions throughout one’s lifetime.
I’m not advocating eugenic practices but a shift in focus from promoting longevity to enhancing quality of life. Do we want to live long lives with frequent and unpleasant battles with disease, or do we want to live happy, healthy lives of shorter duration? The choice is ours; we are choosing the former.
Pervasive attitudes toward death are neither rational nor conducive to human well-being, but they are changeable. Negative attitudes are reinforced by the media. For example, the deaths of young people are often described as tragic and untimely; presumably because we’re all supposed to live to be senescent. We lament the milestones that the young person didn’t get to experience as if being born should entitle us to such things. This reinforces the notion that death, for anyone who isn’t elderly, is necessarily a bad thing.
We also have a tendency to glorify those who fight disease. Obituaries often report that people have lost their “brave” battles with cancer. Whether it’s done out of fear of death or with the hope of experiencing life’s pleasures in the future, battling cancer is not heroic.
Ultimately, we are individually responsible for our own attitudes toward death. We have the capacity to question our assumptions and replace our views with ones that make more sense.
Questioning our assumptions and practices is especially important when it comes to ethics. Most of us wouldn’t put a family pet through chemotherapy, no matter how beloved. It would seem selfish and inhumane to subject an animal to suffering for a mere chance to keep him alive a bit longer. When it comes to humans, what is considered to be ethical is much different. Even children with very poor prognoses may be forced through painful medical procedures with little honest consideration of what’s in their best interests.
Suicide is often portrayed as a selfish act, since it causes immeasurable pain for surviving loved ones. But why should this be a deterrent for the individual who wants to end his life? Should we live lives that we don’t want to live to keep other people happy? I don’t think so. By the same reasoning, it could be argued that we should live at home for our entire lives if moving would cause our parents grief. Maybe the onus should be on the living to deal with loss favorably.
The ethics of assisted suicide, in the case of an adult in chronic pain, seem clear to me. If an adult wishes to receive assistance in ending his own life, and someone is willing to help him, I think we should respect his wishes.
We ought to have the right to do with our lives as we wish, so long as we don’t infringe upon others’ rights to do the same. Whether ending our lives is a good decision or a bad decision, it should be ours to make.
When it comes to end-of-life practices, ethical issues are complex and highly debatable. Because of the potential for infringement on individual rights and the potential for suffering, it is important that the debate happens.
It isn’t my opinion that death should be glorified or encouraged, but I think it should be accepted to a much greater extent than it is. Death is a natural and inevitable part of life; it’s our inability to deal with it adaptively that poses the greatest threat to our well-being. It would behoove us to learn to deal with it in ways that are respectful of individual freedoms and conducive to enjoyment of life. Quality of life is everything.
Posted by Quinn O'Neill at 12:18 AM | Permalink






















Comments
After three suicide attempts, brought on by immense, unfathomable suffering and the realization that there are too many people in the world ( and why should i be so special to think i am important?), i came back to realize that when people say "suicide is selfish" what they are really saying is "self-slaughter is putting us in the position of having to defend our hypocrisies. (i.e., people should be free but not able to make the most important decision there is and life inevitably leads to death and this scares us and we don't like fear so we will just pretend we think life is great/sacred.) We are awash in death.
It really was easy (not being brought back, the dying part)--like taking off an old overcoat, like walking into the next room easy. Thank you for writing this.
Posted by: MissVolare | Mar 8, 2010 6:48:27 AM
In every single detail, this piece articulates a conversation I've had with myself (and anyone who'd listen) for years. Thank you so much for putting it on paper.
Posted by: Stoker | Mar 8, 2010 7:21:44 AM
Here is everything we know about death: The organism battles it with with every chemical, physical, and emotional force at its disposal. Organisms choose existence over every other value. An animal in a trap will gnaw off a limb to escape. Humans will trade family, community, possessions, religion, and principles for life in 999,999 cases out of a million. The overwhelming evidence is that nature places a high, if not the highest value on life, in that any organized collection of self-replicating cells will sacrifice any part of itself in order to maintain its core of metabolic functions. If the natural world has one "message" for us, it is this: death is terrible and to be avoided at all costs.
Life is important to those who have it. This is the closest thing there is to meaning in the universe.
No system of morals can be considered natural that does not make the preservation of individual human life its highest value. We must begin with the recognition that our lives are precious to the cells that compose our (roughly bordered) selves, and that the lives of others are equally precious to them. We honor the importance of this principle (as humans will do) by taking it to extreme lengths -- favoring mere existence over "quality of life" and other considerations to a sometimes ridiculous or illogical extent. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Once we've determined that there are circumstances in which our own lives would be better ended than endured, it's but a hop, skip and a jump to making this decision for others. If I don't consider the preservation of my own life to be of value, why should I consider anyone else's life to be of more value? Who are we to determine that another's life has become insupportable? We're not any wiser than our cells.
Posted by: Faze | Mar 8, 2010 8:03:07 AM
Whatever else we humans are, we are organisms: primates, animals. The fundamental program of self-survival that operates in other organisms operates in us, too. However, we like to think, at least, that only we among the animals are aware of all this, and that opens up for us the possibility of suicide. We can decide to override that fundamental program, and we can devise ways of carrying out this decision.
Questions about the morality of suicide are also our exclusive domain, as is morality in general, we believe (despite the clear evidence for behavior resembling the golden rule, etc., in other animals). It is perfectly consistent to hold that I have the right to suicide, but no right to kill someone else, just as I have the right to get a tattoo myself, but no right to tie someone else down and tattoo them against their will, or the right to throw my money away on a foolish investment, but no right to steal someone else's money.
As for fear of death, I don't think I am afraid of my own death as much as regretful. To put it in a very self-centered way, I regret very much that all of the experiences I have had and expect to have in the rest of my life will have to end. To put it more selflessly, I regret that all of the opportunities to serve others that I will have in the rest of my life will have to end.
Of course, if it turns out that my life from a certain point on will be composed of very painful experiences, and without opportunities to serve others, my attitude toward allowing my life to continue might end.
Posted by: JonJ | Mar 8, 2010 9:55:46 AM
"If one chooses instead to accept the terminal nature of the condition and make the most of his remaining time, palliative care may be the way to go.
If assisted suicide were an option, it would likely provide the most pleasant of deaths".
It seems that is the understanding governments have when it comes to ecocide.
Lets hope they loose the confusion between individual choices and global choices involving the entire species.
Posted by: Dredd | Mar 8, 2010 10:18:43 AM
Decades ago, a British activist for elder affairs said it best. "The trouble with voluntary euthanasia," she observed, "is that it wouldn't be voluntary for very long." Thank you, Quinn, for a really interesting post.
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Mar 8, 2010 10:57:35 AM
"Not only are more people surviving, but more people are getting cancer. As the environment becomes more toxic, medical advances enable those who are most susceptible to environmental illnesses to survive and have children. We are simultaneously making our environment less healthy and inhibiting our capacity to adapt. In the future, it may be normal to battle cancer on multiple occasions throughout one’s lifetime."
I agree with Dredd's point. The answer wouldn't seem to be checking out earlier, but transforming the planet from death factory into a healthier habitat for all species, including Homo sapiens.
I tend to think that Ray Kurzweil could take some of these points to heart, but I don't think there's any turning back in organ transplants, for example, whereby some people gain twenty or more years of life.
However, I also think people should draw up living wills to prevent unwanted heroic measures in the event of illness. Even with this measure and DNR directives in place, it is not always easy to prevent CPR, which EMS workers may be required by law to perform. I also think proper palliative care is essential at the end of life. I worry that with some people advocating euthanasia that there may be a backlash against universal provision of such care.
Perhaps people have an inordinate fear of death because it is so removed from our daily lives today, happening in hospitals or, more recently, hospices.
Elders tend to be viewed as a superfluous population, no longer part of the workforce, needing care, needing all kinds of attention that the young and healthier might want to direct elsewhere. I believe this is a terrible commentary on our society, when elders have so much wisdom and life experience to share, especially with young people, with children. Although she was sick and experienced both physical and emotional suffering before her death, some of my mother's happiest times were spent with other elders and children in an intergenerational daycare center, then another adult daycare center, where she was loved and appreciated -- especially for her sense of humor, which never failed her.
Posted by: Louise Gordon | Mar 8, 2010 12:24:13 PM
I'm not used to writers who deploy scientific language also being wise, but this seems to be the case here. Kudos as well to the readers who emphasized what was implicit in O'Neill's piece regarding the need to stop pollution. Everywhere I look in the city we have upbeat ads for this or that hospital or Terry Fox run or healthy group fight against this or that cancer, and each has its attendant list of perps--I'll grudgingly say probable perps--in the form of corporations that are clearly polluting the hell out of the world and each of which is nicely greenwashed by its association with the notion of being "against" cancer and diabetes and a whole host of quirky diseases. Of each of these corps/perps/corpse-makers, if you're like me you can't help wishing that the burden of proof were more securely on them to prove that their shitting into the environment isn't the cause of the problem in the first place. I can't think of a single reason to drive a personal automobile in the city core, yet far from being discouraged in this lazy and vicious practice, drivers are actively subsidized by taxes. Breath deeply. To the other sentients on the planet we have these encouraging words about humanity: if at first we don't succeed, we fail. Now in my irritation at our filthing the planet, I've forgotten O'Neill's wisdom. Time to re-read the piece.
Posted by: David Ker Thomson | Mar 8, 2010 1:10:33 PM
nature’s infinite patience
an epicurean aphorism
when my way grows dreary
& the fatal lingers nearby
and me life is almost gone
done some hospital time
but! only half came back
my willing cry wasn’t heard a
nightingale’s dutifully held my hand
meanwhile nature being nature
with her infinite patience
stubbornly hangs in there
to what’s left of my earthly life
but some day soon i’ll be heard &
willingly repay my debt to nature
directly me hands let go & this one
wain’t fail as nature leads the way
towards infinite atoms whereabouts
epicurus was spot on when he said
“death is nay misfortune for him who dies,
but only for those who survive “
Posted by: jim sharp | Mar 8, 2010 4:05:49 PM
I wouldn't mind dying so much if I knew for certain that the whole world was going to die along with me.
Posted by: CO | Mar 8, 2010 6:27:44 PM
"Most of us have a very strong aversion to death"...just a slight understatement there.
And then: "Natural selection sees to it that those animals that are best able to avoid it [death] survive longer ".
well duh!
I'm sorry but after laughing out loud to those sentences I didn't bother to read on
Posted by: Keri | Mar 9, 2010 3:21:00 AM
My wife is doing her PhD research on attitudes towards the signing living wills, ie a document that authorizes medical staff not to resuscitate (DNR) you or employ other elaborate means of extending life if your medical state becomes hopeless. Many old people are anxious that they may linger in some hopeless semi-conscious vegetable state for an indefinite period, with no doctor daring to make the decision to let go. It’s a situation that happens often and there is growing evidence that most people don't share the "life at any cost" hysteria expressed by Faze in his comment.
On the other hand, as it were, I am the father of a delightful boy who has cerebral palsy. Yes, he sometimes expresses his anger at being stuck in a wheelchair and unable to do anything without help, but rides horseback, swims a bit, laughs a lot and has just smashed a plate glass window with his power chair. So I am constantly reminded of the sweetness of life and his determination to spread cream cheese on his own slice of bread using his one half-good hand, while I hold him standing jammed against the kitchen cabinet for support, is as inspiring as any heroic scene painted by Jacques-Louis David.
Posted by: aguy109 | Mar 12, 2010 2:17:01 AM
"well duh!"
Keri, I think it's one of those unfalsifiable EvPsych "just so" stories.
Posted by: Sagredo | Mar 12, 2010 2:28:14 PM
This article came up in my search "why do we continue to live?".
I wanted someone to give me a viable reason why we should chose to live through such a painful life, instead of just ending it and effectively going to sleep. I have never understood why people have an aversion to death. When your dead, your dead. You don't know about it. Sure you can fear being in pain before the death, but to fear death itself seems crazy.
I don't know but I look around me everyday and see so many people with pain and struggles. I really can't understand why we continue.
Personally I have a chronic pain condition that no one has been able to resolve. Everyday I fight different pains and side effects of drugs and fight to "stay happy". I've been doing that for way too long and I just want to give up. I can't because of my partner, but if he wasn't around I really could not find a rational justification for continuing this.
Posted by: Zoe | Aug 6, 2010 1:53:05 AM
Hi Zoe. It sounds like your in a bad place right now. I really, really hope things start to turn around for you. Take care.
Bryon
Posted by: Bryon | Aug 6, 2010 8:51:12 AM
Zoe, Bryon's right. Don't pack it in. The thing to keep fighting for is the day you're glad you did. Depression, and the weariness of pain, make everyone see rational choice in a different light. I hope you can get better help for the pain you suffer, but also the kind of help that allows you to bear the pain without giving all your power to it. Life has called upon you to be a fighter. May you fight until you win.
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 6, 2010 11:19:17 AM
Zoe,
It’s tempting on some level to give you a sort of knee-jerk response that stems from our culture’s irrational aversion to death. It would include statements like these: Hang in there. Tomorrow will be better. There’s a reason for it all. This would be hypocrital and disingenuous of me, not only because I wrote the above essay, which is based on more rational arguments, but because I also have experience with severe pain (not chronic, but recurring).
From the age of 8 or 9, I suffered from severe migraine headaches. These weren’t the kind that people describe as “so bad they have to lie down in a dark room”. I wasn’t able to sit or lie still. I would rock back and forth and writhe and cry and moan for up to 10 hours. The pain was unreal - well beyond what I could tolerate. I tried every accepted medical treatment and cockamamie home remedy. I saw specialists, I prayed to a variety of gods and saints, and I tried to find my own cures. But still they came once or twice a month and every one made me wish that I were dead. At age twelve, in the throes of a migraine, I asked my father to kill me. I wasn’t an overly dramatic child, so this made for my first of many trips to the hospital. I often saw the same physician in the emergency department. He would give me drug after drug until I was pretty much unconscious. This usually took many hours and many drugs.
As difficult to cope with as the migraines themselves was the fear of getting one. I always knew that within a month there would be another. On one occasion, just after recovering from a migraine, I told the physician “I don’t want to go through this again”. I think, perhaps because of my solemn tone or because he’d seen me through so many of them, he understood what I was implying. He said nothing and left. There were wonderfully happy times between the migraines, but nothing that would have made enduring the pain worthwhile. I discussed such thoughts with my family, who offered some of the above mentioned statements - hang in there, there’s a reason for everything, etc. The most infuriating of all was the suggestion that God wouldn’t give anyone more pain than they could handle. I don’t buy this.
A couple of decades after my first migraine, I discovered that I had a sensitivity or intolerance to wheat. I was able to reduce the frequency of the bouts to a few per year by changing my diet. I also discovered a medication that helped a lot. Having this mostly behind me now, I can honestly say that there were positive things that came of it all. I think suffering and hardship can give us greater depth as people and a greater appreciation for the better times.
That said, if I’d known at age 8 what the next two decades had in store for me, I can’t say that I’d have continued. Nor would I recommend continuing to anyone facing this fate. However, if I’d known what the future held for me in the month before I discovered the medication, I’d have looked forward to my future. Life is a mix of great joys and deep sorrows. It’s also full of mysteries and surprises. We never know when a seemingly hopeless situation might improve. I’m not sure that that’s a rational justification for continuing, but when things did improve I was glad it got me through.
My very best wishes.
Posted by: Quinn O'Neill | Aug 6, 2010 6:58:02 PM
Quinn, that's a seriously good answer and I hope Zoe has kept reading. I think judging what other people can tolerate, and where their latitude for self-determination leaves off, is assumptive. There are conditions under which I would not consent to be here -- I suspect that's so for many of us. Zoe described a dreadful situation that she's in, and she sounds really battle-weary. But maybe the life she's fighting for is worth the fight, when she feels more battle-ready. I think the ability to stay on top of awful pain comes and goes, even if the pain is there to stay, and that weariness and pain eat into reason. Your story is astounding, and you're glad it didn't end too early. If Zoe can keep going, there's that possibility for her, too -- and I'm happy you shared it with her (and other readers.)
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Aug 6, 2010 8:25:17 PM
This is one of the most incredible and generous threads I've ever read on the Internet.
Zoe, I hope you and your partner can find some measure of joy and comfort with each other.
Posted by: Norman Costa | Aug 7, 2010 12:20:39 AM
I really don't think anyone born after 1960 will have much choice in the matter.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Aug 7, 2010 12:28:34 PM
My apologies to everyone for my last post. I had been prescribed a new drug called endep for my pain. I took it the day I did the post and didn't realise it had a huge psycological effect on me. I would strongly advise people not to take it if at all possible. It is awful. It made me think that suicide is a normal thing to think about and is the logical conclusion to going through a painful time.
I went away at the weekend and realised a few things. These might help if you are thinking in a similar way to me.
First, if you are thinking that way, same as my partner told me (very grounded great person) its not normal. If you are having those thoughts something is wrong. You are probably thinking no sh*&)t Einstein.
Anyway if you are thinking the same thoughts as me and need a logical answer to the question I posed - ie why should we continue to endure such a painful life - the answer is in two words - hope and love.
Sounds like bullsh*(^t but its true.
If you are feeling bad for reasons similar to mine, ie realistically you are not in that bader position and are thinking about suicide then you probably shouldn't because the reality is things do get better and the feelings you get in those good times are worth waiting around for.
You can go from having the shitist time to travelling on a beautiful blue day, listening to the most soul inspiring music with someone who truly loves you and be so over flowing with love that the you truly trulyknow suicide would have been wrong.
Unless something truly horrendeous is happening to you which is unlikely to end then you should try really hard to have hope and stay around. Its worth it. The feelings I felt this morning are worth living through the shit.
If you are a good person and you have your head screwed on you can get through anything and end up with a fabulous life.
You just have to try and have hope.
A tip for anyone who might be feeling down, try in your life to surround yourself with people with truly good hearts. You will not be let down in times of real need(one of the primary reasons I think people get depressed).
The love of those people will always be enough to give you hope. Hope and true love real is "all you need".
If you are not in love with someone with a beautiful heart, don't stop looking till you find them. You'll find them eventually. Believe me it's worth the wait.
Love
Zoe
Posted by: Zoe | Aug 8, 2010 10:16:33 PM
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