January 26, 2009
Obama's Address to the State of Non-belief
by Daniel Rourke (a non-believer)
"We know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus - and non-believers."
Barack Hussein Obama, 20th of January, 2009
As a British citizen I watched the inauguration speech of America's 44th President with a warm but distanced interest. But as someone who was brought up in a non-religious family, and has thrived without a belief in a deity, I listened to Barack Obama's words with fascination, concern and hope. Obama's message to his nation and the greater world was one of inclusion. A broad ranging speech during which America's new leader threw his arms wide around those who believe in America, and even wider around those who perhaps do not.
The matter of 'belief' resonated throughout Obama's address: the belief in God, the belief in America and the belief in Obama himself. Yet in regard of that single word a debate among 'non-believers' has sprung up. A debate as to whether Obama's nod to the millions of Americans who call themselves non-theists, atheists or agnostics should have been wrapped up in such a semantically negative phrase.
To pick apart the significance of the phrase 'non-believers' it pays to look at the word 'atheist': a label which is often analysed by theistic and nontheistic communities alike. A common etymological error connects "a", from the ancient Greek for "without", and "theism", denoting a belief in God. Thus, an a-theist is considered to be someone without a belief in God. The true etymology of the word though is better derived from the Greek root "atheos" meaning merely "godless". Thus athe(os)ism is closer in kind to a "godless belief system", rather than "without a belief in god/gods". This analysis, although tiresome, is worth attending to in regards Obama's inclusive rhetoric, because as a minority non-theists are some of the most pilloried in American society.
In an infamous 2004 study, conducted by the University of Minnesota's department of sociology, 39.5 percent of those interviewed stated that atheists "did not share their vision of American society":
Asked the same question about Muslims and homosexuals, the figures dropped to a slightly less depressing 26.3 percent and 22.6 percent, respectively. For Hispanics, Jews, Asian-Americans and African-Americans, they fell further to 7.6 percent, 7.4 percent, 7.0 percent and 4.6 percent, respectively.
The study contains other results, but these are sufficient to underline its gist: Atheists are seen by many Americans (especially conservative Christians) as alien and are, in the words of sociologist Penny Edgell, the study's lead researcher, "a glaring exception to the rule of increasing tolerance over the last 30 years." - link
The suggestion that an atheist's concern for their country is of a different quality to that of a believer is enormously telling. Has the common misunderstanding of atheism as a lack of belief come to be associated in America not just with God, but with morality, patriotism and an empathy for others? A 1987 interview conducted by Rob Sherman with George Bush senior seems to attest to this. Whilst in the office of Vice President, Mr. Bush stated:
"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."
A comment that has rung in the ears of nontheists ever since.
It is this apparent mis-conception about non-belief that makes Obama's comment seem all the more thoughtless. Surely, in a speech of such fine rhetoric, so minutely crafted to chime with the thoughts and feelings of an entire nation - and of a world beyond - a phrase weighted as strongly as 'non-believers' should have been handled more carefully? It is doubtful that it was included as an afterthought; doubtful indeed that Barack Obama and his team of talented speech writers did not deliberate over its usage and inclusion in the most important piece of oratory they had ever crafted. How many Presidents of the last century have talked of 'non-believers' in such patriotic tones? How much recent American policy has cited atheists and agnostics as integral to the character of the nation; as a minority worth even calling attention to?
A closer look at the phrase is necessary, I believe, to truly grasp its significance as one of the most subtle shifts in political rhetoric the Obama team has yet delivered. Another extract from the inaugural address begins to clarify our semantic quarrel:
“On this day, we come to proclaim an end to the petty grievances and false promises, the recriminations and worn-out dogmas that for far too long have strangled our politics.”
Here Obama asks for the narrative of American life, of American policy, to be redrafted. A call to a young nation to "pick [itself] up, dust [itself] off, and begin again" the work of building its identity. Obama's call for America to unite under its founding principles is a definitively secular call; a call to the American State to be once again separated from any religion, just as its founding fathers had intended. For too long the identity of America has been infused with a kind of Christian grand-narrative, a sense that if God had placed mankind on the Earth to achieve greatness, and if America was the world's greatest nation, then God must have always intended for the Christian story to also be the American story. This dangerous ethos, often echoed in the rhetoric of the Bush administration, is arguably responsible for the current tension between America, the Islamic world and beyond. This dangerous ethos, once reassessed through the eyes of a secular nation, bears more relationship to a fundamentalist doctrine than it does to a moral bedrock for American policy.
By placing 'non-believers' at the end of a list of religious denominations Obama and his team were speaking not to the religious beliefs that unite Americans, but the moral and social bonds that tie them together as communities. When we look at the Christian community, at the Jewish community, at the Muslim and Hindu communities, the sharing of 'beliefs', becomes much more irrelevant. Two distinct people may call themselves Christian, but as a Protestant and a Catholic their core religious beliefs will be very different. By citing the non-believer community in his "patchwork" identity Obama was talking of the irrelevance of any particular view of God in the constitution of the American nation. His message to the Muslim world to "seek [together] a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect" was a message to all to put particular beliefs in Gods aside and get on with the common goal of restitching our patchwork world. A message to:
"Tie up your camel first, then put your trust in Allah." - link
As a non-American, I can believe in similar ideals. As a proud atheist I can attest to the fact that not believing in a God does not mean I don't have beliefs. After all, every one of us - Atheist or Agnostic, Christian or Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Baha'i, Shinto or Rastafarian - are non-believers in something.
Posted by Daniel Rourke at 12:06 AM | Permalink






















Comments
I really enjoyed this article. Especially like the notion that we are all non-believers in something.
Nice one!
Posted by: Ben | Jan 26, 2009 6:25:21 AM
i am extremely proud to be a non-believer and was very happy to be spoken to in Obama's speech because it was not only to Americans, he deliberately addressed himself to the whole world. in the context in which the phrase was used, non-believer clearly referred to people who dont believe in religious bullshit and i think most people in the world have far too many beliefs and could do with losing a few. believing stuff is what causes all the trouble in the world, people need to have a whole lot less trust in their own generally limited cognitive abilities. lets put epistemology on the school curriculum instead of re.
Posted by: ellen | Jan 26, 2009 7:32:28 AM
I too much prefer "non-believer" too atheist. A god is only one part of the supernatural that I don't believe in.
Posted by: rich | Jan 26, 2009 8:17:44 AM
I liked the 'non-believer' acknowledgment in the speech. How would you rephrase the sentence? It's hard for me to come up with a 'less negative' alternative.
The pragmatism of this administration is such a relief after the pig headed flag waving of the last.
Posted by: Nimble | Jan 26, 2009 10:34:58 AM
As someone who was brought up as a brainwashed catholic, through no fault of my parents, other than their own misguided beliefs and their conviction that catholic education was the right way to guide their children, I was interested to see that a simple phrase like'non-believers' could evoke such rhetoric. My intellect and common sense tell me that the idea of one supreme being is nonsense.............yet catholic brainwashing is difficult to unpick, so the phrase non-believer makes my feelings almost acceptable.
Posted by: sheila | Jan 26, 2009 12:34:10 PM
Non believers are being resourceful in New Zealand: (From PZ)
A lesson in dealing with missionary zeal
The New Zealand department of conservation maintains a network of huts in the backcountry — these are little shelters with a radio for emergency calls and a mattress so hikers can wait out a spell of bad weather. It's all very sensible. Until the evangelicals discovered them. Now there's a missionary campaign to put a bible in every one of them, too, since, as the founder of this plan says, "I realised then this was a captive audience."
I think I'm going to have to move to New Zealand now. The response by hikers to this effort is classic pragmatism. They think it is a fine idea.
"Given the option of a ropey old Reader's Digest I would rather use a page from a Bible to start a fire."
Notice how polite he was to avoid mentioning the other use in which the tissue-thin pages of the bible are superior to the thick glossy sheets of Reader's Digest.
Posted by: dave Ranning | Jan 26, 2009 12:36:22 PM
Very intersting article!
Posted by: ksteele | Jan 26, 2009 12:58:00 PM
Interesting perspective. Thanks.
How did the people of England, with all its history of religious identity and strife, how did England, the nation and its people, become so secular, famously non-church-going and more or less dismissive of all religious authority more than almost any other country (can you think of even one?), while Americans have become so adamantly rooted in some anglo-roman/judeo-christian mythos, while remaining genuinely ignorant of theirown real history or anything that's not in their version of the bible. Would it help if America had actually adopted a state religion? Then we too could all feel comfortable in treating religion with the same distain England does for its official religion, and americans' reserve for the IRS or some other obnoxious arm of the "gu'mmint" that is currently causing me to break-out with inflamed boils. I mean, just in case any of this divine creator hocus pokus stuff turns out to be real, at least we have the bases covered with an official religion and that at least takes off some of the heat from the "true-believers". As long as it goes no farther until then...it'd be OK...maybe as a form of innoculation against "catching" religious fervor; self-administered in carefully measured doses to prevent the lethal brand of religion to flare up as it usually has in History.
Crazy, but it might work.
Posted by: doug l | Jan 26, 2009 1:06:28 PM
Thanks for all your comments!
I think the main reason why Europeans are more atheistic than North Americans (and not just us Brits) is Education.
Never would I endorse teaching Creationism on an equal par with Geography and Science, but teaching about the history of Creationism, teaching it alongside an overview of other religious systems is, I believe, a necessity.
The fact that America divorces its social and political systems from its religion drives the understanding of religion onto the street and into the home. I learnt about other faiths as part of an ongoing religious education. It made me recognise the distinction between 'religious culture' and 'belief system'. It gave me the ability to talk about religion in the presence of a teacher whose impartiality was taken as an integral part of their role as educator.
I know that academic Daniel C. Dennett, for instance, has championed the American classroom cause. Perhaps Obama could look into it :-)
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Jan 26, 2009 4:27:09 PM
Aaaaah..... You're splitting hairs. I was delighted to hear a president acknowledge non-believers, and welcome them into the big tent. This first step is cause for celebration, not a slap-fight. Leave the finger pointing and hurt feelings to religious people. They're good at it.
Posted by: Richie | Jan 26, 2009 5:04:21 PM
It has always puzzled me why the US is so anti-atheist, when there were so many barely religious people there at its conception. You'd have thought the right to a separate church and state would be like the right to carry a gun, but somewhere secularism got lost.
Your point that believing in the nation and believing in god have become horrifically tangled is a really good one.
Posted by: apicturehelduscaptive | Jan 26, 2009 5:38:10 PM
Dennett hasn't explained how the religious curriculum is to be arrived at, though. Does he get to decide what should and should not be taught about my Catholic faith? Do I get to determine the syllabus for his Atheist one?
Also with many thousands of protestant Christian variations, how will we decide which ones are too small to make the cut? You could probably even sub-divide the Atheists into a few dozen sects without trying very hard.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 26, 2009 5:39:52 PM
Carlos,
You're getting confused again my poor chap. Dennett's calling for a thorough education in the world's RELIGIOUS systems for school children. Given that atheism means "without religion" I don't conceive of a need for you to be writing any syllabus just yet.
As someone far smarter than I so aptly put it: "atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby"....
Upon completion of their comparative religion class, I'm sure the students would start to put two and two together as they stride across the yard towards their chemistry class - Dennett's intention all along, no doubt.
As for the catholic curriculum, I'm definitely well qualified to write that one up should you feel you'd slip up at impartiality. That said, I think Dave's classically abridged version might just do.....
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 26, 2009 6:42:40 PM
Carlos, what about including Catholicism under the heading "Deophagous Religions"?
MattinOz, long time no see. Glad you're back. I'm so busy not collecting stamps that my tracking skills are atrophying, but I noticed you were not around. I want to rework the stamp-collecting analogy if I may. While atheism mightn't be a religion, does it not amount to an unwavering belief in non-belief? That is, belief that there is nothing metaphysical in which to disbelieve? So that Mormonism is not more dunderheaded than Wotanism, Vodun, or Shinto? And, Queen Sirikit is no more or less semi-divine than my poodle? If the answer is Yes, then not only looking the other way at stamp-collecting but refraining from every analogous activity must be covered. So that atheism is a religion the way NOT engaging in any compulsion that exalts one type of item in the material world above others is a religion. Especially since all items in the material world have only the value we at present perceive in them, so that we ought to be valuing them with greater accuracy or leveling distinctions, not finding beauty and meaning in demonstrably capricious valuations.
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Jan 26, 2009 7:32:55 PM
Elatia,
Can't put one past you too easily - I'm surprised you even noticed but yes, it's been a busy and travel-filled holiday period for me - I've peeked in from time to time but had little chance to contribute to the 3QD banter. Happy New Year and congratulations on your new president.
To address your point, and I can only speak for myself here, I certainly do not hold a unassailable "belief in non-belief" - that would be rather hypocritical. What I do note, is that none of the childish nonsense that passes for religion in this world has the slightest grounding in reality. Therefore, I don't believe in any of them. Simple. Were hard evidence to arise tomorrow, corroberated by others so that I knew I wasn't being fooled by my brain, I'd change my mind, just like that. Easy. So 'unwavering' is not a great word to describe my position at all - that's too close a cousin of 'faith'. I'm ready to waver at any moment - just need the evidence.
Now if you want to head on down that track of "well, you've just got faith in evidence and reality" well, mark me guilty as charged. Because guess what - when it comes down to it, life or death and philosophy be damned, we ALL share that - the most ardent naturopath will still be knocking on the oncologist's door when it matters.
As for your redefintion of religion that becomes so broad it's including (or NOT!?) a level exchange rate for all material values, well this is hardly in the domain traditionally recognised as religion, is it? I think, to get back to the article, it was pretty clear the distinction Obama was making, no?
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 26, 2009 9:02:51 PM
Atheism means Godlessness. It's a faith based epistemology with no scientific support. N'est-ce pas?
Further, as I have previously pointed out, it requires belief in at least one miraculous event. I think it qualifies.
Since Dennett's goal is to level the playing field, do you think he would object to having his belief system subjected to the same clinical review he would have others' judged by?
I'll agree with you that Atheists might be "special," but I don't believe in coddling beyond allowing them to think of themselves as "Brights." That has enough endearing value to garner a pass.
Elatia: Taste and see!
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 26, 2009 9:23:51 PM
No, a-theism means literally "without a theology" - if a side effect of this is a back seat for sky fairies, so be it. No miraculous events are required that I've heard of, though one would have to be in possession of an open enough mind to allow for the possibility that there are yet things we haven't discovered... It's humbling and refreshing to say "I don't know". Theology should try it sometimes.
'a-deitism' may be a better suggestion if you want to narrow it down to gods.
And while we're speculating, I agree Dennett would probably be more than happy to open the classroom doors briefly on an examination of a world without theology - but it certainly wouldn't inform much of the curriculum. After all, how much of a sports science degree is spent studying couch potatoes?
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 26, 2009 9:42:27 PM
Dennett gave a lecture at Stanford the other night, which I attended, and he was his masterful self.
MattInOz has hit it right on the head-- religion is something not added to ones reality when they wake up in the morning. It is like not collecting stamps.
The difference between a atheist and a religious person, they added the Psychopathic Space Daddy to their world, the atheist just went along with the emerging dialectic of life.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 26, 2009 9:59:38 PM
From time to time I ponder the hoary old questions of why atheists are in such bad repute for the majority of Americans, and why the religiosity of American culture seems to persist far beyond its due date, as compared with most European countries, Japan, etc.
I don’t have any good answers to these questions yet, but I have come up with a couple of possible ones. 1) Most Americans have probably still not run into any outspoken atheists in their everyday lives, and don’t have a clear sense of what sort of person an atheist really is. Thus, the old stereotype persists that atheists must be dreadfully evil folks who can’t be trusted to behave because they don’t believe in a hereafter when they will be punished for whatever bad deeds don’t get punished on earth or a god who will see to their eternal combustion.
2) I’m not sure that American religiosity is due to Americans being worse educated than Europeans, etc. In many ways, they probably are, but I don’t think the superiority of European education is what cooked religion’s goose on that continent. The absence of a state religion in this country may have more to do with it, in the sense that there wasn’t a clear target for anti-clerical rebellion to aim at. But even more, I think it has to do with the way in which the communities that people’s daily lives are rooted in have formed in U.S. history. In the relatively traditionless, blank-slate matrix of American society, successive groups coming into the country (including most especially the imported African slaves) have had little to cling to, in order to create a dense, nurturing basis for their communal relationships, except their religious communities. Thus, they have tended to use their church/shul/whatever groups as assurances that “we just plain folks are good, reliable, salt-of-the-earth types.” And hence it seems to them that atheists, who apparently lack such religious foundations, must be rather eerie, untrustworthy types. (And hence the recurrent anti-Irish, anti-Catholic, anti-Asian, anti-Black, etc., sentiments.)
And indeed, I was also quite happy that Obama included “non-believers” in his speech, and that there have been relatively few calls for him to be burned at the stake, as it were, as a heretic. Perhaps Americans are becoming less fanatic about the evils of non-belief.
Posted by: JonJ | Jan 26, 2009 10:04:48 PM
I am a little annoyed that Stanford doesn't post their free lectures. Dennett, being one of the most energetic non-stamp collectors, is always interesting.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 26, 2009 11:23:09 PM
Carlos-
It was a over flow crowd, they under estimated Dennett's audience.
The Psychopathic Space Daddy's were on the run, and not a Cosmic Jewish Zombie, or Talking Snake around!
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 26, 2009 11:29:41 PM
I guess I'm condemned to take PSAT analogy tests over and over and over again, but I'm like a dog with a bone about the NOT collecting stamps analogy, which, MattinOz, though you say it was uttered by a cleverer one than you, even, I do not find clever but merely glib. Being confirmed in not having a theology unless a counter-argument compels otherwise suggests a certain relationship with the entire, supposed immaterial world. You would need the hobby you didn't have to be mighty indeed before its absence implied an analogous relationship to the material world. So one might say instead that atheism is a religion the way NOT listening to music is a hobby -- except that that doesn't flatter atheism, which I think was the point of the original remark.
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Jan 27, 2009 12:06:07 AM
Come now Elatia--
You are right, but need to keep to the subject. Atheism is a not adding a Psychopathic Space Daddy to your life, and embedding yourself in the sensual world that emerges naturally.
And enjoy that music! It is real, you can hear it and play it, feel it. No mystical addition necessary!
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 27, 2009 12:31:43 AM
Elatia,
I'll grant that your attachment to that bone is of more than a passing interest, so humour me here if you will, I fail utterly to see your point. Remembering that the analogy stands as a neat expose of an empty tactic, how is your music alternative any more glove-tight as an analogy? I'm definitely missing something...
(and I didn't say 'cleverer than me even' so I'm not sure where that extra 'even' came from or that I like much what it insinuates)
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 27, 2009 12:51:58 AM
Elatia,
A small tweak in diction may do the trick. Not "belief in non-belief" but "non-belief in belief." It ends up being just as ideological but the illusion of a demurral of belief is very important to this set, who believe (somehow) that they don't believe they follow a metaphysical program.
But my question is, when do the buddhists and taoists get their shoutout? Were they intended to be included among "non-believers," since they worship no god? Or do they just not represent a sizable enough constituency? (Or lobby group. Are we going to start seeing large red Bs on blogs now, for solidarity's sake?)
Posted by: Chris Schoen | Jan 27, 2009 12:55:34 AM
To put it slightly differently, I've always been a little bemused by those claiming to use the "atheism's just another religion" canard. It seems to say, in effect "look, your lot are just as big a bunch of silly buggers as ours" or at the very least, devalues the term religion as far as religites have always understood it. How does that help one's cause? I guess that's where I see the stamp-collecting analogy as tack sharp and spot on rather than glib. But there you go...
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 27, 2009 12:59:36 AM
If atheism was purely negative, like not collecting stamps, there wouldn’t be so many people pleased that Obama acknowledged atheists in his speech. Atheism is certainly not a religion, as it has no widely-observed cultic practices, such as prayer or worship (that’s cultic in the non-pejorative root sense of “care”). It does, however, share some things with religions, such as a certain set of propositional beliefs (materialism, the law of ontological parsimony, etc.), a loose organization of the fellow-minded, self-identification, etc. It’s not just an absence or a void.
Posted by: Ross | Jan 27, 2009 1:53:44 AM
"It’s not just an absence or a void."
Perhaps the Buddhist concept of 'Mu' would be a useful term for the atheist. Mu is an absence, but one that is more like 'a something of absence' rather than 'an absence from something'. When used as a response to a Buddhist Koan, Mu addresses the problem of the question itself.
In matters of religion, god/gods, spirit, worship and prayer I am Mu.
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Jan 27, 2009 5:51:48 AM
"law of ontological parsimony"
It's not a law, so much as a discipline, but, from Wikipedia:
In other words, as Einstein said "As simple as possible, but no simpler." Difficult challenges to mechanisticism such as the Primordial Existential Question cannot be passed over by invoking the principle, nor can evidence such as the fine-tuned universe be ignored (Although the Scarlett O'Hara syndrome is in fine flower). The "Law" of Parsimony gets into further trouble when used to try and defend a purely causal mechanistic universe against the challenges posed by the Universe behaves at the Micro (Quantum) level, or Macro (Holographic) level
Mattlin:
No, godlessness is correct. Also from Wikipedia:
Nowhere does it state that it means without a theology. Indeed the theology expressed by Atheists is quite explicit. More to the point, it is an active state of belief for those who practice it, requiring an affirmational decision that cannot be based on positive evidence, in other words, Faith based.
Dennett, I am sure, means to allow the curricula to measure the validity of expressed religions by their actual practice, warts and all. Above and beyond merely hooting at the unilluminated, Atheism has some track record of works, some good, some actually terrifying, particularly when removed from the cover of societies that allow religious expression and encourage imitation. Whenever that has happened, people quickly start to die in large numbers.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 27, 2009 9:20:16 AM
Very nicely put, especially the ending. As an atheist, anti-theist, nonbeliever etc US citizen I am still left with much hope but virtually no optimism.
Posted by: Jeff Slahor | Jan 27, 2009 9:58:09 AM
As I understand it, Obama grew up in a secular household and was only baptized into a Black American church when he began his public career, because he saw that religion provides some structural stability to the Black American community as a whole. He sees religious frameworks and the ethical structures that exist among non-believers as allies in his declared ethics and value-driven campaign to improve US society and economy.
The goal of reforming the markets so that they don't build themselves on loans on mortgages for castles-in-the-sky, or the goal of producing 25% of US energy from sunshine require great leaps of faith and determination, and Obama wants to harness all available faith or reason-based structures to achieve them.
Posted by: aguy109 | Jan 27, 2009 10:06:09 AM
Chris, thanks! Mighty clever! But how different is it to say these two things?
"I don't believe in belief."
"I believe in not believing."
I'm not making a point, I'm asking. Also, does not a good Taoist "do nothing, that everything may be brought about"? True heirs of Lao Tzu know that an atheist and an Anglican vicar are, alike, blind men palpating different organs of the elephant.
MattinOz, are your knickers in a twist? The "even" you object to is my editorial remark, not the imputing to you of a self-serving manner of speaking. Sorry to be unclear, but I'd never make fun of you or make an invidious observation of that caliber. I hope to take only clean swipes when I'm not utterly mild-mannered. But about that pesky analogy. While stamp-collecting lore is compendious, even staggering, music is vast to the point of being illimitable, deeply expressing human nature, and speaking to it, in a way nothing else can. The analogy is wrong on grounds of scale, because it equivalizes belief in nothing immaterial and non-engagement with a high-IQ hoarding type of mania calling for a certain level of discernment. Pardon me for sticking to my guns, but which sentence below seems more right?
A bridge is to a river as a tunnel is to a mountain.
A bridge is to a river as an underground power line is to a mountain.
That's all I mean. Scale is part of what makes an analogy just; manipulation of scale is part of what can make a remark glib or otherwise misleading. Jihadists have been told that any death agony they may suffer blowing themselves up is -- owing to virtue -- "nothing but the bite of a gnat." It suits them to believe it, but belief in not dying hideously in a surprisingly long moment, or disbelief that they will do so, might encourage in them a late-coming, brief appreciation of accurate language usages. The day anyone discovers his atheism to have been a religion will NOT be the day he observes, "So it's been like the hobby of not collecting stamps."
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Jan 27, 2009 10:32:13 AM
"Atheism is also a religion" keeps recurring in these discussions, and it's no more true now than when it was first invented.
In a certain sense, one could say that religious belief and "belief in not believing" are both beliefs, but the essential point is that they are very different kinds of beliefs, which function in very different ways. Trying to put belief in invisible, unverifiable gods on the same footing as "belief" in quarks, etc., is like trying to say that Shakespeare and I are both writers because we both string words together to make sentences.
People interested in this topic should look up Charles Sanders Peirce's essay "The Fixation of Belief" (www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html) and ponder the differences between the various methods for fixing beliefs he describes.
Posted by: JonJ | Jan 27, 2009 10:42:53 AM
Well, I'm late to the party again!
Isn't the argument one about denotation and connotation? "Atheism" may denote "lack of belief in God or gods", but, rightly or wrongly, for many people it connotes anti-theism. As in Lenin's League of Militant Atheists, PZ Myers idea that there can be "Neville Chamberlain atheists" - as opposed to right-thinking and right-doing atheists like Himself.
For whatever reason, you're likely to get more people to identify as non-religious than to identify as atheists. To the extent that bothers you, I would say you do have a belief system around atheism.
Posted by: Vicki Baker | Jan 27, 2009 11:33:45 AM
"The Fixation of Belief"
Another member of the Metaphysical Club heard from!
It's a nice read for Theists and Atheists alike, but, as a confirmed Trinitarian, you realize Peirce wasn't talking about belief in the theological sense? I'm sure he'd be happy we Papists have gotten over our phobia about reading the Bible though, risks of private interpretation of scripture notwithstanding.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 27, 2009 3:00:26 PM
Elatia,
They amount to the same thing, probably. I was just remarking that the first one allows the speaker to claim a skeptical perspective, while the second one gives the game away that there is a positive belief underlying atheism, as Ross notes in comments above (e.g. materialism, parsimony, a lawful cosmos).
JonJ,
Quarks may come and go, but they were surmised by the same process that postulated phlogiston and Democritan atoms. It's the scientific naturalism itself, not any particular theoretical details, that stands more appropriately in comparison with gods (or, more accurately, a universe where gods are possible). And naturalism is a positive metaphysical proposition that can't be falsified scientifically (outside of an Escher drawing, or Munchausen tale), because it is the source of the tools used to attempt that falsification.
Fallibilism (Peirce, Popper) doesn't provide much of a way out, since it comprises a positive belief in fallibility. That is, it suggests a world picture in which we can't know anything with certainty--except the fact that we can't know anything with certainty, which must, since it supplants verificationalism, be taken on faith.
Perhaps its excessive to call atheism a religion, with all that entails, but what (some) people are trying to get at by saying so is that rationalism can only take you so far. At a certain point one encounters a regress, which can only be met by belief (conscious or not), or speechless delerium.
Posted by: Chris Schoen | Jan 27, 2009 3:34:06 PM
Not "belief in non-belief" but "non-belief in belief."
Chris- you need to define it, or we are playing in the relativistic world that you inhabit. As Dennett points out, it is the "Belief in the Belief in Religion"--
You need to define what you are not believing to stay coherent, if not it becomes Relativist Crack.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 27, 2009 4:25:55 PM
Thanks for an interesting read Dan. The etymology of 'atheism' particularly interesting.
And yes, most encouraging to have been included in his address.
Posted by: Anne | Jan 27, 2009 4:43:49 PM
And what happens when one does not have a "Belief in the Belief in Religion"?
" In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so."
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 27, 2009 5:38:52 PM
Love to see the link for your source, Dave.
Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc is not generally a particularly strong position to take, but whatever grinds your axe.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 27, 2009 8:59:49 PM
Carlos-
Here is a Link.
This has been proven in numerous studies. The more religious a society is, the more dysfunctional.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 27, 2009 10:55:47 PM
Jury's still out, I guess. Pauls paper has been rebutted by several sources, including the very journal that published him.
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3 with many charts from authoritative sources
Further, link 3 demonstrates that Paul misrepresents his sources
It should not need to be said, of course, but apparently it has not yet sunk in for you, that non-religious society-- absent any corruption or cushioning from theistic influence--had ample opportunity to demonstrate its superiority during the last century. The results were epic, but not in a good way.
I will grant you that kids in the States seem far hornier than elsewhere, with the attendant bad outcomes, but to lay that at the feet of religiosity and not mention 30 years of Sex Education and sexualized media? Gee Dave.
Again, Post Hoc ergo Right over your head.
Our many social ills, which so encourage the mis-reporting of agenda driven hit pieces like the one you bought into, generally have a lot more to do with our secular social engineering exploits than their mere adjacency to people of faith.
On the other hand. People of faith, statisticaly, are happier, more optimistic, and seem to live 7 years longer than people of no faith. I don't see a down side to that, or find a rebuttal.
NY Times
Religious folk live on average 7 years longer. People who meditate live 3 years longer, which isn't too bad, but since they probably spend more than that amount of time on a mat trying not to be, I think it could be considered a wash.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 12:27:55 AM
NY Times Redux
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 12:34:19 AM
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 1:14:11 AM
Seems to like Dinosaurs though.
Drawings are way better than his paintings. Skip down before you judge too harshly.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 1:21:43 AM
I don't stand by the argument that the social experiments of Pol Pot in Cambodia, or Stalin's Soviet Union, or Mao's Cultural Revolution were inherently 'secular'.
These regimes were loaded and driven by a zeal of a very religious kind. The same kind of faith that Christians and Muslims put in God/Jesus/The Pope was put into living people. Look, for instance, at the godlike persona that Stalin created (and that still echoes throughout the separated USSR territories).
It is unquestioned BELIEF that is dangerous. Not necessarily religious belief.
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Jan 28, 2009 2:48:54 AM
Well said Dan, as has been pointed out tirelessly by numerous commentators (Dawkins being only a more recent example) there is very little difference between an almighty and unquestionable godhead and an almighty and infallible head of state, either of which one is supposed to be willing to forfeit one's life for (the 'greater good'). ie 20th century movements typically mentioned in these cases differ little from religions and are to be avoided for the same reasons - one should never abdicate their responsibility to think for themselves. As far as atheism having anything direct to do with these mass murders - that's just an idea peddled by religions to make themselves feel a little better about the Crusades, ethnic cleansings, terrorism etc, all EXPLICITLY performed in the name of gods. But it didn't wash then and it doesn't wash now. Take away religion (or similar styles of fantasy-based thinking) and you give your society at least a running chance of harmonious existence (a la Scandinavia et al and the correlations Dave was getting at)
Elatia, knickers officially kink-free, clarification accepted, I was way too quick (at work, with little time) to jump to conclusions without a re-read and of course should not have ever expected such from you at any rate. My apologies. As for the analogy, I now see your point in the argument from scale, but of course, I'm not sure I can agree. For you speak as if the metaphysical/supernatural (or more accurately, the lack of belief in it) is a HUGE whole in the atheist's philosophical reckoning but given that there has never been any demonstration of it's existence outside of human neural networks, is it not just one of MANY possible things NOT to believe in, a tiny subset worthy of our original comparison? If that's not clear, consider that at least philately is real, right? I get what you mean but I think we accord different values to the supernatural (me, virtually none at all outside of fantasy/fun, you, well I've never been able to pin you down on that one - the exact value in according respect to something you yourself deem not true [unless you've changed your mind on that score..?])
Carlos, need to read your links, will get back to you.
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 28, 2009 4:41:35 AM
That should, of course, read 'HUGE hole in the atheist's...'
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 28, 2009 4:45:08 AM
I know that Peirce was personally a religious believer of a certain sort, though his personal life certainly rubbed the pious of his day very much the wrong way. But I happen to take the view that philosophical arguments should be assessed on their own merits, independently of the personal lives of their originators. Socrates was not a very good husband, etc. But I know others disagree with that approach.
At any rate, in the fixation of belief paper, Peirce makes it very clear what he thinks of the methods of tenacity, authority, and a prior metaphysics, which pretty much disposes of most traditional kinds of theology, and I agree with his arguments. Perhaps, in the end, it comes down to a choice of whether you go with a scientific sort of approach to fixing beliefs or you don't, but considering the alternatives, over the course of human history, I think the scientific approach is clearly preferable for the most part.
Does it answer all the problems that worry people, deep down in their souls? No. But it cautions that, at the very least, if you come up with a belief, deep down in your soul, that seems to you "the truth," you should hesitate a bit before hauling out the firewood and torches and dragging those who disagree with you to the stake. Fortunately, even most of the strongly committed religious believers, in this part of the world, anyway, have pretty much given up that quaint old custom!
Posted by: JonJ | Jan 28, 2009 9:17:09 AM
I don't stand by the argument that the social experiments of Pol Pot in Cambodia, or Stalin's Soviet Union, or Mao's Cultural Revolution were inherently 'secular'.
It's a Golden Age for scientific inquiry, isn't it? Where each of us is finally entitled to our own facts. Anyone can now get any result they want by simply editing down their data sets until they get what they are looking for. Paul, above, is a great example of this, and I am certain he agrees with you completely.
The Russian and Maoist revolutions were, though, explicitly anti-religious anti-theists and took an eradicatory posture towards people of faith, though they didn't stop there. That these leftist movements seemed to hold their leaders in Messianic awe (can somebody give me an Obama?), even though most of that was merely propoganda, does not at all mean they were religious in the sense that is acceptable on this thread, apparently, and certainly cannot be ignored by thinking people who ponder what a society without faith might be like. In the absence of any other examples – of societies untainted by God-loving influences — you need to dance with the data-set what brung you. Even modern secularist examples from Europe can't count because of the lingering corruption of religious influences (you need a pure sample), notwithstanding that they aren't doing near as well as we are told from what we can see in my link 3 above. More assults in Sweden (which has jailed people for their religious beliefs, if memory serves) than here in the Wild West? Who would have guessed?
It is unquestioned BELIEF that is dangerous. Not
necessarilyreligious belief.Exactly. Now go read that Peirce article, and remember he means you to look within, not without.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 9:24:31 AM
Wow did that touch a nerve!
I hope the best for my religious friends in their struggles with superstition.
Compassion naturally arises out of knowledge and awareness, but if they can archive it from bronze and iron age fiction, my hat if off to them.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Jan 28, 2009 10:18:43 AM
Absolutely not, Dave! I had no idea your link had such an accumulated wealth of refutation, but I could hardly fail to report back, could I?
Compassion naturally arises out of knowledge and awareness...
Got a link for that? ;-)
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 10:54:09 AM
I am an American and PROUD to be one! I am also a Christian and PROUD to be one. Our view here in America on religion is the same as our founding fathers views were and that being, everyone has the RIGHT to choose their own belief's or in your case “understanding”. The Christian community here in America does not look upon the "Non-Believers" as evil or eerie in any way, they are viewed as Americans that have the freedom of choice and nothing more or less. We also don’t think that just because you are an atheist that you are less patriotic or less of an American. We are a nation of many religions, beliefs, and cultures. I have never forced my religion on anyone and will never have the intentions of doing so, but I will voice my opinion and it is my opinion that most Europeans think that they are superior to everyone else (especially the French and English). I am also not denying the fact that America has issues, but so does the rest of the nations of this world. If it were up to the citizens of this nation we would just mind our own business and tell you all to do the same. If you disagree or think my writing to be of poor quality you can just keep blaming it on the fact that I’m American.
Posted by: GodBlessAmerica | Jan 28, 2009 11:29:49 AM
Arguing with believers is as fruitful (and useful) as collecting your bellybutton lint. I'm glad I didn't get into this one.
Posted by: Pepito | Jan 28, 2009 11:56:51 AM
A couple of responses:
To Carlos: Would the word 'cult' help clarify things?
To GodBlessAmerica: My article was not meant to be polarising, quite the opposite. I do not think that as a Brit I am in anyway superior to Americans, French or Inuit. But I do stand by the fact that atheists are widely seen as a threat to Christian America, and are often perceived as 'outsiders' to the true American way of life - I have atheist-American friends who can attest to this.
I am sympathetic to your identity as a Christian: I definitely believe that as a social-bind religion can be, and sometimes has been, a force for good. What I do take issue with is your idea that all atheists try to shove their beliefs/non-beliefs down your throat. If you have had bad experiences with atheists I am sorry, but in most circumstances when I talk to someone about their faith I do it because I am interested in MUTUAL understanding i.e. we can both learn something from each other. I think it is from this position off mutual respect that Obama delivered his address.
The bottom-line is that although I respect your right to hold and express beliefs, I do not believe that I should respect your actual beliefs in themselves.
If we all took up that position then we would have to respect every belief, no matter how outlandish (alien abduction cults) and/or dangerous (Nazism etc.) it might be.
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Jan 28, 2009 12:48:11 PM
Daniel, I think it may not be necessary to respect the religious beliefs of others, but it is a sign of fellow feeling not to derogate from whatever is most precious and meaningful in another's life. That's different from deferring to something you find quaint, harmful and stupid. To respect the right of another to believe something when you yourself believe that you believe nothing is not exactly a courtesy, but a matter of law, like stopping at a traffic light so that someone you might disagree with can pass safely even so.
One rather distressing aspect of the argument for atheism -- and the argument for religion, for that matter -- is the relish proponents of either side can occasionally be seen to take in derision. This leads quite naturally to the question whether derision is sometimes the point. Would it be as much fun if no pot shots could be taken? If one goal of the argument was to advance it while leaving everyone's self respect intact? Curiously, such a goal might result in more minds and hearts changing.
Posted by: Elatia Harris | Jan 28, 2009 1:42:10 PM
"Would the word 'cult' help clarify things?"
Sure, if you don't think Dr. Dennett, Dr. Dawkins, et al and their acolytes would be offended.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 2:09:41 PM
Daniel,
If we find nothing to respect in offensive value systems--even so loathsome as Nazism--we are confined to considering the adherents of those value systems as having nothing in common with us; as essentially not being fully human.
I think we want to be careful to remember that we are all human beneath our creeds, and that we hold our beliefs and values for human reasons, many of which are honorable (e.g. to be part of a loving society or cosmos, or to further charity and justice). To withhold all respect for these aims is to close off the part in ourselves which remembers that we too are vulnerable and needy and a little bit lost outside of our integration with a social and "spiritual" whole. Failure to remember this can make us vindictive and mean. As Elatia mentions above, there is no shortage of mutual derision between theist and atheist camps. It's too easy to dismiss the other as blind, immoral, craven, or any number of qualities that seem to make communication hopeless. PZ's site is an object lesson in vitriolic belittlement, as is Dawkins'. And we could pull similar examples from religious fundamentalist sites easily enough.
Whatever the intellectual merits of your value and belief systems, however much congratulation you deserve for not believing in anything "supernatural," what, exactly, is socially advanced by refusing to respect other people that think differently from you, on those grounds alone?
Posted by: Chris Schoen | Jan 28, 2009 2:53:39 PM
"If we find nothing to respect in offensive value systems--even so loathsome as Nazism--we are confined to considering the adherents of those value systems as having nothing in common with us; as essentially not being fully human."
That is an excellent point, but I think it sidetracks the issue of 'respect' as some sort of right. I can respect a person for standing up for, even dying for, their beliefs without necessarily respecting the exact beliefs that drove them.
I started writing this article with an impulse to analyse the concept of 'belief' semantically. The conversation that has followed has only strengthened my resolve. Perhaps in English we are limited by the very word/concept of 'belief'. The number of ways in which that word can be used, and the confusion this overlap causes, is quite staggering.
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Jan 28, 2009 3:08:28 PM
I think we've discovered a new twist on Godwin's Law: any Internet discussion, if carried on long enough, will end with a comparison of Obama to Stalin and Mao.
Posted by: JonJ | Jan 28, 2009 5:25:29 PM
Daniel,
I agree with you. I have friends that are "non-believers" and I don't treat them any different then my friends who are believers. In fact my godfather to my children is a Buddhist. I don't segregate according to religion and as for your freind I am sorry that he/she is ridiculed for their "understanding". If they live in the south I can imagine that they would go threw some sort of oppression for the fact that the south is extreme in their beliefs, but the way that I grew up we were taught that one should love and respect all people and thier beliefs. It is God who gave us free will and who am I to tell you that your wrong. I respect your point of view and will never force mine unto you. We are all free in my opinion to are on beliefs and idealism on all aspects of life. God Bless you and in that I mean I only wish good things for you and everyone else.
Posted by: GodBlessAmerica | Jan 28, 2009 7:55:11 PM
Carlos,
By the looks of those stats (I've just had as close a reading of those links as time allows here at work) both sides can twist them to suit their desired outcome, hey what's new. But take a step back for a moment and just consider the following.
How could it POSSIBLY be a positive thing for society to:
(i)teach its children that there are some things that have to be taken on faith alone (who's ideas do you choose?);
(ii)teach its children that the yearnings they begin to experience as normal mammals passing through puberty are something to be guilty of and that responding to them is wrong;
(iii)teach the less well-educated members of other races that it is of greater moral outrage to use a condom during intercourse than to potentially pass on a death sentence to your partner or even that condoms CAUSE that death;
(iv)teach that there is no crime so terrible that it cannot be undone with a few words to a cross-dresser behind a screen;
(v)teach that for men to sexually stimulate one another somehow is against nature, though it has been demonstrated and filmed in countless other species;
(vi)teach all manner of physically impossible occurances as true history (think virgin births, wine to blood, bushes that burn not, walking on water);
(vii)teach that one guy in all the world cannot by definition be wrong, even though he himself doubtless knows it to be tosh....
and on and on and on the list goes - and that's just ONE little corner of one little branch of one of the world's thousands of cults that have come and gone through history. I mean, come on. How can you possibly claim that stuff like that would be of NET BENEFIT to a society that condones it? How can it possibly be a good thing to lie to children, not just for expediency on the odd occasion, but systematically over their entire development such that they are not correctly prepared to face the real world as adults?
Have you ever thought, instead of reflexively defending this stuff, that "hey, maybe, just maybe I've been had"?
Posted by: MattInOz | Jan 28, 2009 7:59:32 PM
Well the links I posted don't seem to allow for your inerpretation. The USA by Ranning's and Paul's reckoning must be worse than the more secular societies. They clearly are not. Add to that the fact that we give more of ourselves to others than the rest of them put together, and the argument just doesn't hold up.
We go on.
You have something against cross-dressers, Matt? Just wow.
The whole universe is physically impossible. I guess something more is required for us to be here. Why sweat the small stuff?
The rest of it is just willful misinterpretation, ignorance and calumny. If you want to know what I believe, you can find out here
It does actually seem to be a benefit, Matt (see previous posts, but by all means Google away), and my kids have gone on to be happy, healthy, realistic, and productive, well prepared to accept the world as it is. How are your kids doing?
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 10:08:59 PM
"I think we've discovered a new twist on Godwin's Law: any Internet discussion, if carried on long enough, will end with a comparison of Obama to Stalin and Mao."
lol. I fear I have been misunderstood. Unearned adoration was my point, rather than any intimation of Stalinistic qualities on the part of the President.
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 10:22:24 PM
"I started writing this article with an impulse to analyze the concept of 'belief' semantically. The conversation that has followed has only strengthened my resolve.
Critical acceptance without further doubt?
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 10:25:46 PM
Arguing with believers is as fruitful (and useful) as collecting your bellybutton lint. I'm glad I didn't get into this one.
Pepito: You are so right, man. Why do I let myself get dragged in?
Posted by: Carlos | Jan 28, 2009 10:27:59 PM
It appears that everything, that is said or done, on this earth is taken into account, so I say account this, KJV VERSION OF HOLY BIBLE. ECCLESIASTES 12:12-14.....MATTHEW 4:17.........ACTS 4:12........ALSO READ EVERY VERSE ON SALVATION ........READ THE ENTIRE BOOK,AFTER ALL IT WAS WRITTEN FOR YOU AND ME.....LATER FRIEND.
Posted by: Zeke | Feb 8, 2009 9:28:43 PM
Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast, February 5th:
Posted by: Daniel Rourke | Feb 17, 2009 12:02:10 PM
The goal of this office will not be to favor one religious group over another - or even religious groups over secular groups. It will simply be to work on behalf of those organizations that want to work on behalf of our communities."
This seems to be a nod to Bush's Faith Based Initiative as a continuing participant in the public sector.
I wonder what strings will come with it, though. What do you think they should be? My church has a food bank we all contribute to on a weekly basis. It would be great to have access to yet more food to give out, particularly these days a'comin. Any objections?
Posted by: Carlos | Feb 17, 2009 3:25:07 PM
Mattin Oz:Carloz is right. Children should not me messed and in more:Atheism is a religion as any, because ofcourse it has no proofs that gods dont exist.
Posted by: meimi | Mar 2, 2009 1:35:04 AM
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