3quarksdaily

« Interpretations: Blood Studies | Main | Darwin's Living Legacy--Evolutionary Theory 150 Years Later »

December 29, 2008

Gaza

This flag of Palestine is here to symbolize our solidarity with the innocents being massacred and maimed in unbelievable numbers in Gaza. All justifications for the brutal Israeli assault are utter nonsense.

Posted by Abbas Raza at 09:52 AM | Permalink

Comments

Finally we agree, Abbas.

Posted by: Pepito | Dec 29, 2008 10:43:45 AM

There are no "innocents" in Gaza. They're all guilty, and paying the price for their recklessly voting into power the murderous zealots of Hamas.

ACD

Posted by: A.C. Douglas | Dec 29, 2008 11:09:23 AM

So Palestinians have a licence to lob rockets into Israel, and Israel isn't to do anything? There IS a justification for a response. Whether Israel picked the best response is another question.

Posted by: Zora | Dec 29, 2008 11:22:18 AM

Not that simple...
Both sides share the responsibility for this horror.

(Although the Israelis have long gone "proofed" their point, all new actions are pure Vanity/Cruelty/Stupidity)

Posted by: Roi | Dec 29, 2008 11:24:07 AM

While all sides in the conflict are responsible for this horror, the Israelis, with their powerful military, bear special responsibility for this atrocious situation. They are in a position of power, and this gives them more options for constructing a lasting peace, if they wanted one. The ineffectual rockets from Gaza are of no military significance...they are only expressions of rage against the humiliation that Palestinians have had to suffer for many years. From my point of view, the Israelis are heading toward the only viable short-term option they have (altho' they will not yet admit it): total extermination or deportation of those in Gaza. How cruelly ironic that it is the grandchildren of Holocaust sufferers that will be the ones carrying it out!

Posted by: Bill | Dec 29, 2008 11:36:50 AM

Truth is, from Israel's inception, the government was never interested in peace with the Palestinians- they were an obstacle to Israel's greater mission of complete conquest. In Moseh Dayan's own words "the question of peace is non-existent...[Israel] must invent non-existent dangers and adopt a method of provacation and retaliation". Ben Gurion wrote in his diary of expelling Arabs so his people could replace them. This current war is merely a continuation of Israel's plan of no peace, just conquest.

Posted by: Sinan64 | Dec 29, 2008 11:37:26 AM

"Both sides share the responsibility for this horror."

Apparently for some people there is no moral difference between the oppressor and the oppressed. Of course the U.S. government, already an expert in several genocidal colonial enterprises, supports the rights of the colonizer to strangle and destroy the colonized and wipe them out if they attempt to defend themselves. U.S. citizens, who by far agree with their own government in this carnage, are in part responsible for the situation. I'm horrified.

Posted by: Pepito | Dec 29, 2008 11:43:06 AM

Depends what you mean by nonsense Abbas. If you mean that none of the justifications are worthy of this response, then I could not agree more. If you mean the status-quo of rocket fire should be acceptable by the Israelis, I'd have to differ.

But not accepting something doesn't give one the right to go and bomb what little remaining infrastructure was left into rubble. That is truly infuriating. What the hell is Israel trying to do here? This isn't going to stop the rocket fire - so what is the goal?

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Dec 29, 2008 11:47:26 AM

@ACD: way to recycle OBL's justification for 9-11. I think Abbas covered that one in the last sentence of his article.

Posted by: Marco | Dec 29, 2008 11:50:58 AM

Whenever you make a statement about the middle east containing just one sentence you are usually wrong.

Things are always more complex,
one liners are simplistic at
least and propaganda at best.

Making statements such as:

"All justifications are nonsense"

"There are no "innocents" in Gaza"

Is intellectually poor and just as useless as the bombs
we are now throwing on Gaza.

A solution will only come through dialogue, and the Internet has a special place here, which in this case is almost sacred, because it allows the speaker to carefully state his thoughts
and make for a valuable conversation that can change people's ideas.

And that is what we need, for people to start thinking differently, otherwise violence will persist.

"If you keep on doing what you always did then what you'll ever get is what you ever got."

Respect the "sacredness" of the written word, it's a
formidable force, that can be used for good and evil.

Reckless statements like the ones made here are pure violence, they only help to persist the problem,
a responsible dialogue is harder, and requires more discipline, but it's the root of the solution and the only
thing I expect from people who reach websites like this one,
let less educated people speak
propaganda, be part of the solution.

Also stand behind your statement, show responsibility.

All the best,
Ramon Szmuk
An Israeli

Posted by: Ramon Szmuk | Dec 29, 2008 11:59:36 AM

Abbas-
I stand with you and 3 quarks on this issue.

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 29, 2008 12:15:20 PM

Ramon Szmuk wrote: "A solution will only come through dialogue...."

Dialogue? Dialogue with whom? Hamas? The Palestinian people? It's quite impossible to engage in dialogue with an adversary who will be satisfied only if at dialogue's end you end up dead.

Or have the past 60 years of Israeli-Palestinian history taught you nothing?

ACD

Posted by: A.C. Douglas | Dec 29, 2008 12:26:40 PM

Ramon Szmuk,

An Indian scholar, Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer, best described this phenomenon. His question: Why is the educated middle class more bigoted than the illiterate masses. The answer: Because it is educated.

The less educated are not the problem.

Posted by: South Asian | Dec 29, 2008 12:31:39 PM

ACD-

What do you suggest? That Israel wipe the Palestinians from the map? And if you're not willing to accept their government, why should they be willing to accept yours?

Take your violence and go peddle it elsewhere.

Cyrus

Posted by: Cyrus Hall | Dec 29, 2008 12:47:46 PM

There are no "innocents" in Gaza. They're all guilty, and paying the price for their recklessly voting into power the murderous zealots of Hamas.

You go, homie! Speaking truth to power and all.

Those "children" in Gaza are clearly not "innocent". All those "three" and "four" year old "boys" and "girls," those "toddlers" and "babies" who were "killed" and "wounded," are all in fact guilty of voting for Hamas and therefore deserve what they get.

Wow, thanks for that powerful dose of reality.

Posted by: Sign of Saturn | Dec 29, 2008 12:51:45 PM

So Palestinians have a licence to lob rockets into Israel, and Israel isn't to do anything? There IS a justification for a response. Whether Israel picked the best response is another question.

I'm sympathetic to this argument. A proportionate use of force, one sufficient to protect Israeli citizens, would have been justified.

On the other hand, the grotesquely disproportionate use of force, that which goes well beyond what is necessary to protect Israeli citizens and which results in the unnecessary and disproportionate loss of innocent Palestinian lives, can be given no justification whatsoever.

Posted by: Sign of Saturn | Dec 29, 2008 1:04:05 PM

To A.C. Douglas:

A Dialogue between moderates on
both sides.

There are Palestinian moderates, and there are Israeli moderates,
I don't know how much, but I personally know some on both sides, the goal is to strengthen their world view through dialogue, to give them words they can use to persuade the less moderates around them and thus enlarge the moderate base in both camps.

You are simply skeptical, that's very understandable,
but it doesn't mean you are right.

Saying that it's impossible to engage in dialogue is false,
it's just hard that's all.

Examples are plentiful if you just bother too look, for example:

http://www.vanleer.org.il/eng/content.asp?id=300

This always looks like a drop in the sea, because the progress is very slow but nonetheless it's really the only way if you think about it, setting off bombs proved useless a long time ago.

If you change the mind of one individual, shift him into moderateness, he will disseminate those ideas in his surroundings and it will have a larger effect than what you might expect.

Doing anything else is simply giving up, and accepting violence as given.
It's being part of the problem.

My world view is inherently optimistic and that's the hard thing about it to grasp, especially when the situation is on fire, but again, that doesn't mean it's wrong.

And deep down, you want me to be right, because you now see the alternative, you really have nothing to loose, so try it out, experiment.

If you consider yourself moderate then you are one of the few people who have the possibility to make a difference.
The rest are too entangled with anger and hatred or too poor to have means to express themselves.
So you have a moral duty to try, you are one of the few,
"An agent of change" is a fashionable title now..

So go, do something, eventually the conflict will be solved or we will all die.
And as time passes it get's harder, there are less moderates, less dialogue, less open minds, what you don't do now your child will have to, harder and longer, spare him some of the effort so he will have time and energy left to enjoy life.

Posted by: Ramon Szmuk | Dec 29, 2008 1:10:42 PM

Isrealis and supporters of Isreal should feel ashamed. If not, one seriously has to question which reality they live in.

This is clearly no war.

Posted by: chuk | Dec 29, 2008 1:11:07 PM

Israeli actions are shameful. How can the world stand by and allow this to happen?

Posted by: Concerned | Dec 29, 2008 1:25:02 PM

nominating Mr. Szmuk's comments for Monday Poem...

Posted by: eli | Dec 29, 2008 1:45:16 PM

We stand with you, countless others and the Gazans one hundred per cent, Abbas. By the way, I found Saifedean Ammous' post about how Israel constitutes an apartheid state, plain and simple, quite enlightening. Perhaps you could re-post it?

Posted by: Mariana | Dec 29, 2008 1:51:36 PM

Targets: Hamas "institution structures" (Political headquarters in houses and Police Stations) and civilians

Rocket ratios: 25:1

The rocket and suicide responses are precisely what Israel wants stopped but they don't get that by crippling the infrastructure of a political and social entity they leave young people frustrated and without a formal way to respond.

Either the Israeli military wants this to continue to warrant military attacks or they're just plain stupid. Knowing who trained and supported the formation of the Israeli military, probably the former (go US).

Posted by: Chris | Dec 29, 2008 2:05:09 PM

No justification? So, it's ok for Arab terrorists to launch missiles into Israel, but Israel is not supposed to respond? Hamastan, in your warped mind, has a green light to commit any atrocity, so long as Jews are the victims? What a vile, simple-minded, anti-semitic load of crap. Typical of the knee-jerk Euro-left.

Posted by: Dennis | Dec 29, 2008 2:12:07 PM

I was wondering how long would it take for the first idiot to come up with the "anti-semitic" moniker against those who criticize Israeli policy. Alas, it didn't take long. But onwards with the definitions: Israel's siege on Gaza, whose purpose is to starve Palestinians into submission (or apparently something even worse) fits as much the definition of terrorism as any rocket attack by Hamas on Israeli territory.

Posted by: Pepito | Dec 29, 2008 2:31:14 PM

As an Israeli citizen, hearing some of the things being said about my country, I'm quite despondent. I know that most of what I'll say will be considered biased or worse, but I feel obligated to provide a civil response to the very anti-Israeli
views expressed here.
First of all, the claims of the holocaust being perpetrated by Israel. These are less infuriating to me because of the sheer ridiculousness of the
claims or the total contempt and distrust they show towards
Israel and its people (have you
ever read an Israeli newspaper, talked to any of us? who do you think we are?). They anger me because I feel that behind these accusations lays a perverted glee, a motivating feeling of pride in the "Intellectual Honesty" one is evincing in crying out against an Israeli holocaust, as well as a convenient tool for the alleviation of well earned compunctions.
As to the operation itself.
During the last eight years, hamas and its allies in gaza have fired over seven thousand
rockets towards Israeli civilians- they won't deny it.
The Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel time and time again. This is their main goal- they wont deny that either. This incessant aggression has not decreased since Israel withdrew its forces, and dismantled its settlements in the area. Now Israel has committed grave injustices towards the Palestinian people. But nevertheless the amorphous claims of the Hamas' "resistance" to Israeli attacks, and the various unilateral condemnations of Israel are to be considered within this context:
1. The current ceasefire started breaking down after Israel was forced to react to the construction of a tunnel (into Israel, that is) that was clearly going to be used immediately to kidnap or kill Israelis. Hamas then started firing, Israel reacted etc.
2. Israel refrained from reacting to Hamas' attacks and warned it against its response, to no avail.
3. Less pernicious responses have proven ineffectual, not providing enough deterrence, one could easily conclude.
4. Israel is NOT trying to kill civilians. You can know this even if you view us as heartless monsters. Killing civilians is completely counterproductive to our goals, and I don't think you should think we're stupid like that (we're still around, after all).

More comments to follow...

Posted by: Yotam | Dec 29, 2008 2:35:25 PM

You guys do realize that the people in Gaza have been blockaded by Israel and are now starving to death while being bombed, right? That there are families there that have to subsist on grass?

Posted by: jake | Dec 29, 2008 2:41:42 PM

I'd love to hear any suggestions for solutions to the problems in Gaza & Israel. The Palestinian rocket fire and the Israeli bombing serve those in power on each side of the conflict, otherwise they would not be happening. How can the dynamic be changed so those in power no longer feel the need to fire rockets or bomb?

Is there a solution? It seems like each time the parties get close to civil agreements the most progressive leaders are assassinated by their own hard-line countrymen. Too many people on all sides are too heavily invested in continued and even infinite conflict.

How can this be changed?

Posted by: Phil Cantor | Dec 29, 2008 2:47:27 PM

Small correction:
Number 2 should read: "Israel refrained to react systemically..."
Targeting of launching squads and
the "siege"- untenable in my mind-have occurred.

Posted by: Yotam | Dec 29, 2008 3:00:12 PM

It's horrible and there's no justification... with only the *worst possible* end(s) in sight.

Posted by: Steven Augustine | Dec 29, 2008 3:30:36 PM

send bombs randomly at me? I will strike back. Simple as that.
Vote for the powers that allow the rocketing? You will be a part of the solution. Why is the West Bank not getting attacked?

Posted by: fred.lapides | Dec 29, 2008 3:38:52 PM

Yotam,

You're providing a rationale for Israel's conduct. Fair enough. You're suggesting that Israel operates according to a results-based strategy, the principal and explicit aim of which is the protection of Israelis.

However, the objection many of us have to that rationale is that it places a higher value on Israeli life than on Palestinian life. Killing hundreds of Palestinians and destroying Palestinian infrastructure has become the standard Israeli "deterrent" against attacks on Israelis, attacks that, by and large, have resulted in a much smaller number of deaths. The lives of a few Israelis are apparently worth hundreds of Palestinian lives, to say nothing of the far greater numbers of Palestinians who have been injured and maimed, many for life. Do Palestinians, especially children, not deserve a deterrent, too?

Secondly, the story you've provided is one according to which Israel is largely, if not entirely, blameless; as though the Palestinians were the primary obstacle to peace and as though the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and the degradation of the Palestinian people had nothing to do with it.

If one concedes that Israel has the right to protect the lives of Israelis, how does that justify the use of disproportionate force, a use of force that results in the disproportionate loss of Palestinian life?

(For the record, I don't share the view that Israel models itself after the Third Reich.)

Posted by: Sign of Saturn | Dec 29, 2008 3:42:25 PM

hear hear - where is the humanity in this action? or have the Israeli government just eschewed such niceties altogether now?

Posted by: papalaz | Dec 29, 2008 4:04:57 PM

I am an avid reader of this website. But this proclamation truly upsets me. Saying there is no justification for Israel's attacks is just as pointless as saying there is no justification for Hamas' attacks. It is important to always, always take the perspective of both sides involved. It is dangerous not to. For instance, what about the Hamas leaders who choose, choose to hide near dense civilian areas.

Anyway, I hope to continue to visit this site, and I also hope that this site does not make the mistake of discouraging some of they're readers who are interested in peace for BOTH sides.

Posted by: Dan K. | Dec 29, 2008 4:09:53 PM

While the rest of the world is distracted and firm supporters of the Israeli hawks are in charge of the world's military superpowers, the men running the Israeli government have decided to implement their final solution to the Palestinian problem. In doing so, they follow the example of the Hutus in the 90s, the Nazis in the 1940s, the Americans in the 19th century, and countless other tribes who have taken land and put its inconvenient inhabitants to the sword.

The Palestinians, in turn, have responded as some aboriginal Americans did, as some occupied peoples did in WWII, and as some Tutsis did in 1994. No doubt there has been brutality on both sides; there always is and always has been. But let's remember that 1400 Palestinians and 9 Israelis have been killed in this struggle since 2005. Nobody defends the Nazi death camps by pointing to the (admittedly brutal) tactics sometimes employed by the French Resistance, because it would be absurd and disgusting to make such a claim. Yet many stand by today and nod their heads at the same reasoning in support of the current genocide (or in support of the ongoing US genocide in Iraq).

And 50 years from now, when the Palestinians are a memory, those of us who were here at the time and did nothing will recollect that it was sad, so sad, but that that those who could be blamed are now gone and dead, and so why bother crying over spilled milk, even as we gorge ourselves on the fruits of that land watered with Palestinian blood. We have grown used to the taste of crops watered with the blood of Native Americans, of African slaves, of Philipinos and Mexicans and every other tribe we have conquered, so the justifications come easy.

My sympathies are laughably inadequate to address what the residents of Gaza are going through right now. So I will instead extend my sympathies to those closer to my own understanding: to those who have friends and relatives caught in the firestorm; to those Israeli doves who are trapped by their nationality in the state responsible for the current bloodshed while their work comes to nothing; to those who have lived through other holocausts and are now forced to witness this one while the world, ever sanctimonious about the atrocities of the past, stands by and watches the same old story play out one more chapter. You will never have justice, but you have my useless sympathy.

Posted by: Picador | Dec 29, 2008 4:21:42 PM

Is peace possible? Do both sides want peace or is it surrender that is wanted by one or both? For decades both Northern and Southern Ireland were at it. Now still "at it" sporadically internalized within Northern Ireland. Wars continue to flare-up all over the globe and 'diplomacy' has suffered and fallen to its knees. This world is going to blow itself up. Generations come and go but 'right' and 'wrong'--and how they are perceived and are internalized --never go away. Soon all will be exhausted and in the state of collapse and some BigCheese will step in and put clammers' kabosh on the lot. Is there a solution peace is yet possible?

Edward Mycue

Posted by: Edward Mycue | Dec 29, 2008 4:39:45 PM

Sign of Saturn:
First of all, I do not think that Israel is "largely, if not entirely, blameless". Nor do I believe that the Palestinians are by a long shot the only obstacle to peace and progress. I do happen to think that in this case the majority of the blame is on Hamas. Onto this claim of disproportionate force. In principle, it is uncontested that the reaction should be proportionate to the action. This, it seems, is quite obvious. However, what does this mean in the real world?
It is simply the case that there are nations, and that they vary in power.
Now, a nation more powerful than another is bound to wield
its greater power in order to defend its various interests.
Disproportionate force, I'll claim, is simply the only way things can be in a world not in complete chaos. I doubt that America has ever acted with anything but disproportionate force, nor should it have.
The lives of innocents are precious, their loss bemoaned.
This loss, however has been painstakingly reduced to the minimum by the IDF. Israel's government is fully within its rights to use the might of its army to protect its citizens, as long as it targets only terrorists and their info-structure.
Insofar as this is the case, I believe we should support its actions.

Posted by: Yotam | Dec 29, 2008 4:50:58 PM

Qatl kyon ho gaya hum pey ilzaam hai
Qatl jisney kiya hai vahee muddaee
Vakeelon mein ab ye bahas chhir gayee
Ye jo qaatil ko thhoree si zehmat huee
Ye jo khanjar mein halka sa khaam aa gayaa
Iska tavaan kissey liya jayega ?

- HABIB JALIB

'Why did you get murdered ?'
Is the charge against me
my murderer is the petitioner too
Amongst the lawyers all the debate runs
now that the murderer's been inconvenienced
now that there's a small dent in his dagger
Who shall be made to pay for this ?

Posted by: Arfi | Dec 29, 2008 5:31:50 PM

A bit of hope:
I carpooled to a meditation group with a Buddhist Palestinian and a Japanese Woman studying integrated psychology.
Where there people of the Jewish religion fighting for resources and land from people of a Islamic religion, reason and solutions are not possible.
A Palestinian Marxist friend of mine states that peace is impossible under cultures immersed in the superstitious ideology of Islam and Judaism.
"Religion Is Poison" -- Mao

Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 29, 2008 6:02:55 PM

Disproportionate force, I'll claim, is simply the only way things can be in a world not in complete chaos.

This is an appeal to the law of the jungle. It is the kind of bottom-of-the-barrel logic by which power and self-interest are the only operative standards of justice. It is also a relativist argument, one that can easily be turned against you. If you do not acknowledge mutual standards of accountability—standards by which both Israelis and Palestinians can be held accountable—and appeal instead to the law of the jungle, then you have no grounds whatsoever on which to level accusations against Hamas. For they, too, can appeal to your law of the jungle and similarly justify their conduct.

You have a clear double standard: you want the right to level charges against the conduct of Hamas, charges that imply standards of proper conduct, but reject the charge of the disproportionate use of force by the IDF, appealing to the law of the jungle in which there are no standards.

Your contention that the loss of innocent Palestinian life “has been painstakingly reduced to the minimum by the IDF” is unsupported and utterly unpersuasive. It sounds like an official statement by the Israeli defense minister. It doesn’t rise to the level of a compelling argument.

Let me ask you again: are the lives of Palestinians worth the same as those of Israelis? Or, is it the case that in the jungle, such questions are not even asked?

Posted by: Sign of Saturn | Dec 29, 2008 6:06:42 PM

"There are no "innocents" in Gaza. They're all guilty, and paying the price for their recklessly voting into power the murderous zealots of Hamas. ACD"

Yes, those reckless babies, toddlers and pre-adolescents certainly got what's coming to *them*; one hopes your god will forgive them.

Posted by: Steven Augustine | Dec 29, 2008 6:38:59 PM

As a loyal reader of this consistently thoughtful site, I was disappointed by the one-sidedness of your post. Why express solidarity with only some of the victims of violence, Abbas?

Posted by: Eric | Dec 29, 2008 6:41:08 PM

Sign of Saturn:

There is no recognized standard of proportional use of force that would require a country to submit to constant shelling of its cities from a hostile territory, organized by the rulers of that territory and carried out under their explicity authority.

There simply doesn't exist such a standard.

No country would submit to its cities being randomly shelled daily, by rockets seeking to maim and kill civilians, without retaliating and aiming to destroy the opponent's ability to launch these rockets, if it can.

There simply is no such country.

If Gaza were a state, the shelling of our cities carried out under full authority from its rulers would undeniably constitute a casus belli, and there are no accepted requirements of proportional response to a casus belli. As it is, Gaza is not a state, but things aren't that much different. Gaza has become a terrorist quasi-state, with an organization internationally recognized as a terrorist organization, indeed one fiercely proud of its terrorist attacks and ever vouching to continue them until the complete destruction of Israel, holding everything in Gaza under its complete control.

Israel has waited eight years, while the rockets flew on, year after year increasing in their amount, their reach, the number of cities and the size of the Israeli population terrorized by them. Other means have been tried. Even though negotiating with an entity such as Hamas that sets total destruction of Israel as its chief aim is difficult, negotiations have been tried and brought about a cease-fire that Hamas recently refused to prolong. Economic sanctions have been tried (and called, mistakenly by those misled and maliciously by those misleading, an attempt to starve the population). Every attempt to influence the behavior of Hamas through persuasion by Egypt, itself in a state of very cold peace with Israel, has been attempted. Israel tried to strike back at the individual launch sites when those are away from population centers - with little success, as the rockets are easily movable. None of the measures really helped to stop the constant random shelling of Israeli cities.

We waited eight years, and with the ferocity of the shelling and its reach ever increasing, we have decided to stop waiting. Even as I grieve for every innocent Palestinian civilian killed by our bombs, and wish wholeheartedly that the vast majority of the dead and wounded are terrorists, as so far it seems to be the case, I support this decision made by our government.

No one in Israel wishes to kill innocent civilians in Gaza. No, I'd better qualify that; there are some crazed fanatics in Israel, but they're on the fringe. No one in a position of political or military power wishes innocent civilians in Gaza murdered, and certainly the same is true of the vast majority of Israel's population. As regards Hamas governing Gaza, while Israelis certainly find it disheartening that a terrorist organization explicitly calling for the destruction of our country is governing Gaza, there is no support, political or popular, for bombing Gaza or entering it with military force on account of their choice of leadership. If there were no rockets falling on our cities, there would be no economic blockade, and there would be no military response that is unfolding now. This fact is blindingly obvious to nearly all of us here in Israel, even if it may be difficult to accept from afar: Hamas's rockets on our cities are not a pretext for this military operation. They are the cause.

Posted by: Anatoly | Dec 29, 2008 6:56:20 PM

Abbas: This idea of posting the Palestinian flag as a way to show solidarity with the suffering people of Gaza was brilliant. It is simple, effective and makes a statement louder than any words one could have written. I am fully with you and hope that the Obama Transition team and moderate Jews will take note and force the US govt to change its stance. Thank you.

Posted by: Tasnim | Dec 29, 2008 7:00:35 PM

Have any of you "fair and balanced" defenders stopped to actually think about the differences between "firing 'rockets'" and an attempted systematic destruction with the use of 21st century military with no international backlash?

I think this discussion and the discourse used moves too far away from what is actually going on in Gaza right now.

If you're a decent human being, you should be able to look past the political discourse going on here and look more directly to the problem.

That's the only way we'll ever get passed all these bullshit justifications for violence.

Posted by: Chris | Dec 29, 2008 7:02:12 PM

I feel sorry about the women & children, the trauma and maiming; but Israel has the right to defend itself. War is hell. And it is the fault of the democratically-elected, extremist, Hamas government, which uses residential areas to stage attacks on Israeli civilians.

Abbas, I normally see your blog as a portal to enlightened, well-reasoned ideas, but this post is just divisive.

Posted by: Steve S | Dec 29, 2008 7:37:52 PM

Steven Augustine wrote: "Yes, those reckless babies, toddlers and pre-adolescents certainly got what's coming to *them*; one hopes your god will forgive them."

One cannot act criminally irresponsibly and then hide behind one's babies, toddlers, and pre-adolescents expecting to be saved harmless from the consequences of one's criminal actions. By the Palestinians' criminal behavior they condemned their babies, toddlers, and pre-adolescents to pay the same price as themselves even though their adversary takes every reasonable precaution possible to avoid making their babies, toddlers and pre-adolescents pay that same price. It's time the Palestinians learned that lesson.

ACD

Posted by: A.C. Douglas | Dec 29, 2008 7:57:50 PM

I measure terrorism by body count. It is preeminently the Israeli's strategy to inflict more casualties than the Palestinians can bear; the very hallmark of terrorism. It will appear to succeed in that the militants will launch everything they have and then fall relatively silent. And the beat goes on...

Posted by: Erich | Dec 29, 2008 8:37:49 PM

There simply doesn't exist such a standard.

I’m referring to an ethical and humanitarian principle, not a formal article of international law. When Israel completely lost its equilibrium and violently and irrationally bombed Lebanon to the stone ages, the entire world condemned Israel for the disproportionate use of force. It is a condemnation based on an ethical and humanitarian principle to respond in such a way that does not exceed what is necessary for self-defense and that does not result in the unnecessary loss of life.

If there were no articles of international law prohibiting racist conduct, would racist conduct be justified? It is a standard, inhuman, and utterly revolting piece of pro-Israeli apologetic tripe to dismiss the charge of disproportionate force by saying, “No law requires us to respond proportionately.” This only tells me that you are deaf to ethical and humanitarian appeals, notwithstanding your unpersuasive protestations to the contrary. If you want to appeal only to the authority of international law, then get the hell off of Palestinian land—you have no right to occupy it.

Economic sanctions have been tried (and called, mistakenly by those misled and maliciously by those misleading, an attempt to starve the population). Every attempt to influence the behavior of Hamas through persuasion by Egypt, itself in a state of very cold peace with Israel, has been attempted. Israel tried to strike back at the individual launch sites when those are away from population centers - with little success, as the rockets are easily movable. None of the measures really helped to stop the constant random shelling of Israeli cities.

There’s a problem with your story. Whatever the moral and psychological failings of Hamas—and I believe these failings are countless—Hamas did, to its credit, offer to renew the ceasefire provided Israel lifted the economic blockade, a blockade aimed explicitly at crippling Hamas. Hamas even asked Egypt to pressure Israel to do so. However, Israel chose not to lift the blockade, knowing well in advance how Hamas would respond.

You want to paint a one-sided story in which the Palestinians are the principal perpetrators of violence, a story in which Israel exhausts each and every possibility to avoid conflict, but is forced in the end to use violence as a last and final option. Pushing one-sided stories full of obvious holes will do nothing to make your case more compelling.

Posted by: Sign of Saturn | Dec 29, 2008 9:09:05 PM

As in the tales of Alice. "everyone wins. Everyone gets a prize".

It's not terrorism, it's not the Bolshevik, it's, not the Israeli or the Hamas. It's the paleolithic prescription that guides all of our disastrous actions and behaviors.

What would Cosmides and Tooby say about the meaning of all this from the viewpoint of evolutionary Psychology?

Naught, I believe.

For a good read about how these "wonderful" things happen to us, I suggest:

Leonard Mlodinow, The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules our Lives.

Meanwhile the bombs and rockets will fall through an undending and terrifying night-mare, not far from Bethlehem.

Sad!

Posted by: Felix E F Larocca MD | Dec 29, 2008 9:09:25 PM

The assertion that Israel is a terrorist State, is proven every day. There is no moral equivalency here between those who are being destroyed by Israel and the Israeli detroyers.

Posted by: maniza | Dec 29, 2008 9:28:59 PM

3quarksdaily

An Eclectic Digest of Science, Art and Literature

December 29, 2008

Gaza

Comments

Post a comment

3QD Science Prize

Iran Twitter News

Andrew Covers Iran

The Lede on Iran

HuffPo Liveblogging

Help 3 Quarks Daily

3QD on Twitter

Search Using Lijit

Bookmark This Page

3QD FEED FOR GOOGLE

3QD ADVERTISING

Compare prices

Recent Comments

Acclaim For 3QD