This interview is well worth the time spent with it. Holmes is very clear eyed in his understanding of a situation that is pure chaos. What he brings to this is a very straight understanding of history, philosophy and the events themselves. The result is a sad measure of how far from reason this mess is. Thanks Robin. It's heartening to watch someone state the case the way Holmes does.
Posted by: Pete Chapman | Mar 17, 2008 2:36:08 PM
I enjoyed this, as well. Thanks.
Posted by: Abbas Raza | Mar 17, 2008 7:15:03 PM
I found this to be a very clear enunciation not only of all that has gone awry in the last eight years, but precisely why the administration's (re)actions are so unprecedentedly myopic and damning. I fear that the enormity and array of problems facing the next president will take a generation to solve.
Posted by: Phillip Bishop | Mar 17, 2008 10:22:48 PM
Excellent, clear, and enlightening background of our present situation. Every point ticked off by Holmes sheds light on the actions of the U.S. government up to and since 9/11. Great historical citations as to the whys, and insights as to what do we do now.
Holmes deconstructed the government's "vision" quite well.
The problem Holmes analysis is that he assumes the government believes what it says. That's not correct. Very few governments speak the truth. The neocons are not so stupid that they believe what they say. They know what they say publicly are wrong. Take w m d in Iraq for example.
Minds like Holmes should spend more time trying to figure how to stop Bush's third term (i.e. McCain.) and how to fix this humanitarian, legal, economic and political mess.
But MS, Holmes was not talking merely about what the government said, but what it thought. And anyone who's made a stupid decision based upon what he-or-she thought knows first-hand that it's emminently possible (likely even) to make stupid decisions. I, myself, have done that plenty of times. But, not being president, I've only polluted my immediate environment and hurt people closest to me. With more power I could have done some real damage.
Until we begin to think differently, we cannot see differently. And what we say is determined by what we think and see. In fact, what is said is the least reliable test of a person's sense of reality or veracity. Couple flawed individual-think with clusterfuck group-think and you come up with a pack of neocons, or nazis for that matter.
Joeseph Goebbels murdered his own children based upon what he thought.
Yes, I believe neocons could have been that stupid.
MS- Maybe all we're really talking about is what the definition of "stupid" or "intelligence" is. As to the neocons not believing what they said; that's certainly possible. But it's also possible that they believed enough of what they said to make them dangerous.
But back to Goebbels who wrote in 1933 that the German people were, "...noble, brave, generous, willing, and full of devotion under the care of a strong hand, and (they) may rightly believe that (they are) spotless and pure, and that (they have) the blessing of God."
It sounds so familiar.
Goebbels was apparently intelligent, with a tendency to stupidity; a stupidity in at least the same league as the neocons who led us to war and torture. And that nefarious German propagandist (like Perle, Wolfowitz, or Cheney) believed enough in what he said to prompt him to stupid and ruthless means and ends. One such end being that, as his propaganda collapsed, he popped cyanide tables into the mouth or his six sleeping children and robbed them of their futures.
If nothing else that action suggests his belief in what he said, as off-the-wall as it was to an incredulous observer.
It is well understood that the neocons are very influential. If what you suggest is true, God forbid you are right.
But if you are right, then it is upon everybody who understands the dangers to come out on the street and stop them before they ruin US and plenty of other countries along the way. I think this election is a good time to deliver a crushing blow. I pin my hope on positive change.
I think we are in for a lot of trouble and few are coming out into the street. Doesn't Holmes say something about a docile citizenry in his interview?
Check out the link posted today (3/21/08) today by Abbas Raza (http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2008/03/iraq-an-america.html).
In the article Tony Karon says, "Expect precious little serious discussion on how America got into this mess, not least because so much of the mainstream media was so complicit in enabling it by failing to do its job and challenging the patent nonsense that was being fed to the American people by an Administration whose dissembling was plain to see, even back then."
They say the war tab is approaching $2 trillion (http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-10-23-wacosts_N.htm) and still the Amnerican people are not out in the streets in droves. It's ruining our economy --our infrastructure, our schools, our constitution) and still the main-stream media is brain-dead, or has a deathwish for the nation.
And the American taliban (as Karon so accurately calls them), through one of their most arrogant mouth-pieces (Cheney) says, "So?"
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Comments
This interview is well worth the time spent with it. Holmes is very clear eyed in his understanding of a situation that is pure chaos. What he brings to this is a very straight understanding of history, philosophy and the events themselves. The result is a sad measure of how far from reason this mess is. Thanks Robin. It's heartening to watch someone state the case the way Holmes does.
Posted by: Pete Chapman | Mar 17, 2008 2:36:08 PM
I enjoyed this, as well. Thanks.
Posted by: Abbas Raza | Mar 17, 2008 7:15:03 PM
I found this to be a very clear enunciation not only of all that has gone awry in the last eight years, but precisely why the administration's (re)actions are so unprecedentedly myopic and damning. I fear that the enormity and array of problems facing the next president will take a generation to solve.
Posted by: Phillip Bishop | Mar 17, 2008 10:22:48 PM
Excellent, clear, and enlightening background of our present situation. Every point ticked off by Holmes sheds light on the actions of the U.S. government up to and since 9/11. Great historical citations as to the whys, and insights as to what do we do now.
Thanks Robin
Posted by: J | Mar 18, 2008 2:14:58 AM
Holmes deconstructed the government's "vision" quite well.
The problem Holmes analysis is that he assumes the government believes what it says. That's not correct. Very few governments speak the truth. The neocons are not so stupid that they believe what they say. They know what they say publicly are wrong. Take w m d in Iraq for example.
Minds like Holmes should spend more time trying to figure how to stop Bush's third term (i.e. McCain.) and how to fix this humanitarian, legal, economic and political mess.
Posted by: MS | Mar 19, 2008 1:30:49 AM
But MS, Holmes was not talking merely about what the government said, but what it thought. And anyone who's made a stupid decision based upon what he-or-she thought knows first-hand that it's emminently possible (likely even) to make stupid decisions. I, myself, have done that plenty of times. But, not being president, I've only polluted my immediate environment and hurt people closest to me. With more power I could have done some real damage.
Until we begin to think differently, we cannot see differently. And what we say is determined by what we think and see. In fact, what is said is the least reliable test of a person's sense of reality or veracity. Couple flawed individual-think with clusterfuck group-think and you come up with a pack of neocons, or nazis for that matter.
Joeseph Goebbels murdered his own children based upon what he thought.
Yes, I believe neocons could have been that stupid.
Posted by: J | Mar 19, 2008 10:46:07 AM
J
I agree that some people- intelligent people- at times believe in weirdest things.
The reason why I think neo-cons do not believe what they said about Iraq is that they cooked intelligence to get a headway.
Posted by: MS | Mar 20, 2008 1:01:56 AM
MS- Maybe all we're really talking about is what the definition of "stupid" or "intelligence" is. As to the neocons not believing what they said; that's certainly possible. But it's also possible that they believed enough of what they said to make them dangerous.
But back to Goebbels who wrote in 1933 that the German people were, "...noble, brave, generous, willing, and full of devotion under the care of a strong hand, and (they) may rightly believe that (they are) spotless and pure, and that (they have) the blessing of God."
It sounds so familiar.
Goebbels was apparently intelligent, with a tendency to stupidity; a stupidity in at least the same league as the neocons who led us to war and torture. And that nefarious German propagandist (like Perle, Wolfowitz, or Cheney) believed enough in what he said to prompt him to stupid and ruthless means and ends. One such end being that, as his propaganda collapsed, he popped cyanide tables into the mouth or his six sleeping children and robbed them of their futures.
If nothing else that action suggests his belief in what he said, as off-the-wall as it was to an incredulous observer.
Posted by: J | Mar 20, 2008 8:50:11 AM
J
Now I understand your perspective.
It is well understood that the neocons are very influential. If what you suggest is true, God forbid you are right.
But if you are right, then it is upon everybody who understands the dangers to come out on the street and stop them before they ruin US and plenty of other countries along the way. I think this election is a good time to deliver a crushing blow. I pin my hope on positive change.
Posted by: MS | Mar 20, 2008 12:23:05 PM
"If what you suggest is true, God forbid you are right."
bad sentence
edit
If what you suggest is true, we are in for a lot of trouble.
Posted by: MS | Mar 20, 2008 12:26:07 PM
I think we are in for a lot of trouble and few are coming out into the street. Doesn't Holmes say something about a docile citizenry in his interview?
Check out the link posted today (3/21/08) today by Abbas Raza (http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2008/03/iraq-an-america.html).
In the article Tony Karon says, "Expect precious little serious discussion on how America got into this mess, not least because so much of the mainstream media was so complicit in enabling it by failing to do its job and challenging the patent nonsense that was being fed to the American people by an Administration whose dissembling was plain to see, even back then."
They say the war tab is approaching $2 trillion (http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-10-23-wacosts_N.htm) and still the Amnerican people are not out in the streets in droves. It's ruining our economy --our infrastructure, our schools, our constitution) and still the main-stream media is brain-dead, or has a deathwish for the nation.
And the American taliban (as Karon so accurately calls them), through one of their most arrogant mouth-pieces (Cheney) says, "So?"
Posted by: J | Mar 21, 2008 8:46:36 AM
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